*
programming and human factors
by Jeff Atwood
*
I was plenty excited when I saw Microsoft was releasing a new non-mangled ergonomic keyboard - the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000.
Now that I own one, I'm not excited any more.
I'm ecstatic!
This keyboard is the natural heir to the obsolete but much loved Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro:
The MS Natural Pro was discontinued in early 2001. After that, there were hardly any ergonomic split keyboards with standard PgUp/PgDn clusters. There were a handful of rare and obscure exceptions, but in general, they just weren't being made any more. This was a dark time for ergo keyboard enthusiasts who happened to be programmers.
By 2004, people had started to mock my ugly-but-comfortable 1999-era Natural Pro. I had reluctantly switched to the Digital Media Pro after some flirtations with the Logitech Elite. But neither of these were ergonomic, and both had a very cheap feeling. They just didn't feel right to my hands and fingers.
I'm happy to report that the Natural Ergonomic 4000 is a truly worthy successor to the Natural Pro. My fingers feel at home again! Here are the highlights:
All is not perfect, however. I do have a few quibbles:
The keyboard comes with a pre-installed reverse slope tilt attachment, which supposedly offers a better neutral typing position. I may experiment with this later, but I removed it for now.
My keyboard quest is over. The Natural Ergonomic 4000 retains all the great qualities of the Natural Pro and significantly improves on it. I guess this means I can finally retire my stockpile of Natural Pros.
* It's like, how much more black could this be? and the answer is none. None more black.*
Well, I guess it could be a *little* more black: http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/7727/ [but that one isn't ergo, sadly].
Since you didn't mention price, it seems that Buy.com has it for fifty bucks; presumably, eBay would have it for a bit less. Pretty reasonable.
This post typed on a worn-smooth Natural Pro.
Ben Karel on September 29, 2005 2:29 AMI definitely defer to the none more blackness of the Das Keyboard!
Jeff Atwood on September 29, 2005 2:42 AMWhen are you people going to learn?
Maltron.
Feh. The 6 is still on the wrong side [/touch typist stickler]. ;)
Ab_Normal on September 29, 2005 4:35 AMOh thank god!!!! I, too, have been waiting and actually still have three natural keyboard pros for use on various computers. Finally I can upgrade :)
casper on September 29, 2005 6:56 AMwell. we don't need no stinkin mouses. but we equally don't need no stinkin rubber domes, either. i had a NorthGate for years, but it died, and i found the company had too. however, it is still available (i think, hope) as Avant Prime.
for a touch typist, real switches make a bigger difference than the Bend. try it. you'll like it.
robert on September 29, 2005 7:01 AMGood show! I personally own a Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard (MNMK) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AOWVN/104-8953515-7008708?v=glancen=172282%5Fencoding=UTF8v=glance) and I love it. The MNEK4000 seems to be a sleeker version but I will have to wait on getting my hands on it until I get a job (i'm living in a van down by the river this semester). :-)
I'd definately be interested in hearing more on this once you get a good feel and use into it.
If only they released it a few months ago, I just bought the MS Natural Multimedia keyboard (http://www.clubic.com/photo/00032002.jpg)
Which sadly suffers from the standard sub-standard page up/down cluster layout.
Thankfully at home my organomic keyboard is a classic MS one, with a normal page up/down layout :)
Peter Bridger on September 29, 2005 8:58 AMI just got one for work, I just ordered another for "my" computer at home. Great keyboard. I LOVE the fact that the Sleep is no longer on top of the num pad. My current keyboard (a Belkin Ergo [a viable substitute in the quest for MS Ergos, btw] has it there and it kept getting pressed when I adjusted the cheap keyboard drawer I have here at work. Had to rip the keytops off all the keys above the numpad and rig up a scotch tape and plastic spoon MacGiver style cover. The new MS one isn't as affected so I'm hopeful that I won't have to mod my pretty new toy. Now if they'd only let me have back my wireless mouse...I'd be happy (they were concerned about it being a security risk....don't get me started)
Mike Shaffer on September 29, 2005 10:59 AMYes! I have been searching everywhere for a black split ergonomic keyboard that didn't suck and had a standard page-up/page-down cluster. I was extremely excited when I heard about this and now I really want one.
Matt on September 29, 2005 11:05 AMThe only 'bad' thing about this new and I think the other new MS keyboard offerings is that they are USB only. No PS2 adapters. Since I have multiple systems and use a KVM, my experiences with USB KVMs haven't always been pleasing. However, outside of having to find a KVM that has a switched hub so that the extra/new keys would work, the Ergonomic 4000 is a keeper and I can sleep better at night knowing that I no longer have to treat my MS Natural Keyboard Pro (and 2 spares) as "The One Keyboard". :)
Props to Microsoft to returning some keyboard bliss!
Dan McCoy on September 29, 2005 12:18 PMGotta admit: I adapted to the new missing-insert layout above the cursor keys on the last-generation keyboards.
At first, I couldn't understand it, but now if I'm less coordinated when trying to Home or End or Delete something, I'm not liable to push Insert, then realize several words later that I'm in Overtype mode. Sigh.
And just when you get used to it... it's gone.
Please tell me FLock is gone or on by default now, though.
TristanK on September 30, 2005 5:26 AMYes I too would like to hear about the F-Lock. Is this infernal key of doom still in existance?
Sushant Bhatia on September 30, 2005 5:31 AMIt's an excellent keyboard. I posted something similar to what you said a while after receiving mine: a href="http://briandela.com/blog/archive/2005/09/26/781.aspx"http://briandela.com/blog/archive/2005/09/26/781.aspx/a
Brian Delahunty on September 30, 2005 6:22 AMThanks for all the info....I found this thread by searching for "Microsoft keyboard caps reverse" and now I'm forced to ask, since the answer wasn't here (though lotsa great info was!):
Occasionally as I'm typing at Autobahn speed, I have a crash-and-burn when hitting Shift for a capital letter, and then find that my caps are locked though the Caps lock is off...when I hit Caps lock, lower case letters appear. I must be hitting a sequence to reverse the default, but I can't figure out what it is. Usually I manage to resolve the situation by randomly turbo-hitting all the Southwest and Southeast keys for awhile, but I'd rather know the precise fix...this has GOT to be common knowledge among you Microsoft keyboard elite. Please enlighten me!
Thanks.
DanS on September 30, 2005 6:58 AMPlease tell me FLock is gone or on by default now, though.
Flock is still present*, but it's better behaved. I just powered my system off, then back on again, and Flock stayed set. I remember reading about this before I bought the keyboard, and I can personally verify that it's true.
* Flock is the crazy remapping of function keys to annoying "user friendly" functions like copy, paste, redo, undo, etc.
Jeff Atwood on October 1, 2005 3:28 AMJust got this keyboard earlier today. Happy to report that F-Lock is always on by default now! That means us programmers can actually use them as they were meant to be without any hassle.
Also, one terrible thing about previous Microsoft keyboards was that 'print screen' was only on when f-lock was off! That meant if you needed to take screenshots while programming, you had to constantly toggle between f-lock. No more!! This keyboard is amazing.
Jered McFerron on October 1, 2005 6:14 AMI posted a response on Maltron, Jeff, but your software ate it in the name of fighting abuse. Not gonna retype.
s on October 2, 2005 6:00 AMyour software ate it in the name of fighting abuse
What do you mean? It doesn't "eat" anything. If it rejects your post, it tells you why and gives you a chance to re-edit.
Try it-- type a post with the word "h e n t a i" in it (without the spaces) and see what happens. Nothing is eaten, you can just re-edit.
Jeff Atwood on October 2, 2005 11:06 AMI just bought two of these today -- and so far no major complaints. I've been using a Natural Pro for years at home and (get this) I have 4 or 5 of the really old MS Natural Keyboards at work and home in rotation since around maybe 94? About once a year I rip the keys off an wash them :)
I actually miss the sleep button -- I got use to shutting down every night by whacking that and hitting enter. I was also surprised to not see USB ports.
My only minor complaint is that I keep not quite depressing the left control key. I use the outside of my palm (below the pinky) to depress it -- but it's further away now in a little valley.
Now I want to figure out how to remap the zoom key to something useful - like vertical scrolling.
Joshua Boelter on October 3, 2005 2:17 AMBeen waiting on a review of this one, now I can't wait to buy one.
Jim on October 3, 2005 2:19 AMGreat review Jeff. Bring it sometimes and let's have a show and tell. :)
Eric on October 3, 2005 7:30 AMhm, just got a good old Natural Keyboard Pro and I also have a IBM Space Saver II (the one with the trackpoint, mouse buttons and a usb hub - a href="http://www.tt.rim.or.jp/~naoz-i/keyboard/sskii_1.html),"http://www.tt.rim.or.jp/~naoz-i/keyboard/sskii_1.html),/a and I'm still thinking how great it would be if the two keyboards get merged someday!
Instead of the freakin zoom/scrool whatever, they could just place a trackpoint at middle of the keyboard. That would make sence at least....
If you ever worked with an IBM notebook, you will never want to miss that trackpoint again!
sethos on October 5, 2005 5:14 AMI JUST got the Ergo 4000. First impressions:
1. Beautiful black finish
2. Configurable keys
3. ZOOM ROCKS!
4. No clickity keys. They are the silent type.
5. FLock is ON!!!
6. Back/Forward keys are useful...no more mouse back/forward
7. Raised handrest area. Wierd but nice.
It might take a bit to get used to this but I think I can manage that :-)
Oh and I got this from Amazon with their overnight shipping...I ordered it on Monday night and it was here today. I went to my local Bestbuy, Office MAx and a few other stores but they didn't carry this keyboard.
Sushant Bhatia on October 5, 2005 5:31 AMRegarding the missing sleep button... There is a commonly available command line utility called "sleep.exe". You can find/download it from several different sites. Place it anywhere on your hard drive, C:\program files for example. Then point one of the five assignable "my favorites" buttons at it and, Voila!... you have a sleep button... albeit not labelled.
mike on October 5, 2005 1:38 PMW MacLeod, were you able to fix that problem?
I too have a little quizzle with this keyboard. I want to map the start key under the My Favourites 1-5 keys to do something. However, I am unable to do that. I can only enable/disable that. It would be so cool if I could map that to do an Alt-F4 for me and save me an extra 30 keystrokes a day. So if anyone knows how to remap this key, let me know because I'm interested in trying it :-)
Cheers.
Just got this KB today and I "think" I like just about everything about it except my damn volume control key's are NOT working!!!!
I've tried un/re-installing the Intellitype software and the KB itself to no avail.
Hoping someone will have a solution to my problem otherwise it's going right back for refund.
except my damn volume control key's are NOT working
Is there some other bit of software on your PC that is intercepting these "keys"? Try killing everything in taskman that you don't recognize..
Jeff Atwood on October 9, 2005 8:17 AMSorry,but I returned this KB for refund already.I returned here to see if possibly anybody had come up with a fix to my volume control dilemma,since I ran over to Best Buy and bought this Logitech G-15 keyboard wich I'm now using.I like it much better than the MS Ergo 4000(that's coming from someone who's used Natural style MS KB's for 10+ years now!!)
Anyways,unbelievably,I have the same problem with this one,namely the volume control/mute doesn't work with this one either.
Am I doing something wrong on installation or am I possibly missing a file or is a file association missing/hijacked?
I'd really appreciate some help by the pro's if anybody is reading this out there might know why I'm having this issue.I combed the web in search of a fix,but weirdly enough,I can't find hardly anything on this subject other than mainly HP keyboards inherently and issues within certain media players.I use the stock WMP10.My issue is that the KB vol/mute control on KB doesn't work period.
Just got an Ergo 4000... love the looks of it, and like many of you, I hate that horrible PgUp/PgDown nonsense that has plagued the last generation keyboards.
I'm having quite a bad problem with this keyboard though. While playing GTA SA, I'm trying to reverse the car while looking backwards (involves pressing 3 keys): Q, E, and Down (arrow key). You can't push this combination of keys together!
I would expect this problem from a crappy PS/2 keyboard, but DEFINITELY not over a USB connection which isn't plagued by the 5-pin limiting factor that caused this problem on old keyboards. Has anyone else noticed this or come up with a solution?
Andy K on October 10, 2005 12:34 PMI'm having quite a bad problem with this keyboard though. While playing GTA SA, I'm trying to reverse the car while looking backwards (involves pressing 3 keys): Q, E, and Down (arrow key). You can't push this combination of keys together!
Keythis..
http://www.retroblast.com/files/keythis110.zip
.. says you're right! Wow, that's weird. The Q key is the one causing the problem.
Jeff Atwood on October 11, 2005 2:27 AMThere is a program installed with intellipoint called mskey.exe which shows you the keys pressed.
I notice that Q+E+Down doesn't work. However, Q+E+UP, Q+E+LEFT and Q+E+RIGHT does work. Similarly, Q+W+DOWN and Q+W+RIGHT don't work either. The list goes on with Q+R+DOWN...
Really wierd.
Thanks guys.. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one having this problem. My next question is... is there any way to fix it, or is it a hardware limitation?
Andy K on October 11, 2005 5:08 AMMy volume keys don't work with this keyboard too! Muting works though. I don't know if this has something to do with my recent SB X-Fi Platinum installation. It has changed something in the Master Volume Control Application (X-Fi logo instead of the usual volume slider icon). I'm going to test the keyboard on an other PC tomorrow to see if it is the X-Fi stuff or something else.
Jim Beam on October 12, 2005 7:24 AMThe keys work on the other PC so it must be some software that intercepts the volume keys.
Jim Beam on October 13, 2005 3:59 AMThis is amazing...
I also switch from Microsoft Multimedia Keyboard to a Wireless Multimedia Desktop...and the UP/DOWN volume keys are not working...
Of course, they work on other computer...
Amazing how Microsoft want US death...!
Teno on October 15, 2005 6:59 AMI just stumbled across the solution:
"Try making sure the Human Interface Device Access service is started. The description says it has to do with controlling media buttons and hotkeys."
That's it!
Jim Beam on October 24, 2005 6:06 AMI was wondering whether anybody has had any problems with KVM switches and not being able to use the additional functions of this keyboard?
I just got one and found that the expanded features don't/won't work with my KVM switch. I have an Iogear miniview III, which is all USB. I did find, however, that it does work directly with the computer.
Do I need a new KVM, like one of the Omniviews that are supposed to work better with MS products? I would hate to return this KB because it feels great. The reason I need a KVM is because I have my work and home systems on the same desk and want to keep the clutter down.
Any thoughts?
Mark on October 25, 2005 6:56 AMI tried this keyboard but felt like the profile was bigger than usual. It does provide a better PgUp/PgDown configuration, but for now I will stick to my Natural Elite keyboard.
By the way, is anyone selling their Microsoft Natural Pro keyboard? I am willing to put in a few bucks to get my hands on that one.
I've kind of summarised my thoughts on the keyboards I've used over the years here:
a href="http://farhanahmed.net/index.php/Keyboards"http://farhanahmed.net/index.php/Keyboards/a
"rundll32.exe hid.dll,HidservInstaller /install"
Will reinstall the HID service and make your volume keys work. I had the wireless KB and the volume keys worked when I upgraded to the 4000 they stopped and I just couldn't work it out.
Removed the above service, rebooted and then reinstalled from SP2 and presto my volume key issues are over.
Cheers
Jamie on October 30, 2005 8:15 AMfinally saw it in the flesh (well, plastic). still rubber domes, so... but what's with the variable key size??? T, G, H, N (at least, Staples is cheap with lighting) are larger than the rest, but differently sized from each other. looks to be sort of right handed. why is this a Good Thing?
robert on November 9, 2005 5:15 AMT, G, H, N (at least, Staples is cheap with lighting) are larger than the rest, but differently sized from each other
Yes, but it was this way on the original MS Natural Pro as well. Check the product images above.
Jeff Atwood on November 9, 2005 5:48 AMDoes anyone have trouble with the "H" key not always typing. Happens very frequently to me. I have tried just hitting it by itself to see if it was the angle I was hitting it at, and it isn't because just a straight on hit will frequently not print.
Christine on November 12, 2005 4:48 AMJust picked up one of these for work, based on this review. Faaaantastic. Thanks Jeff!
Kester Allen on November 14, 2005 2:13 AMI just started using mine and I think I like it a lot - I've never owned an ergonomic keyboard before but this just looked really interesting and the reviews were good.
I'm finding the space bar to be pretty stiff. On my old "normal" MS keyboard the spacebar felt like any other key. On this one it takes a good bit of work to press it down. Also when I press it on the right hand side it clacks loudly from the plastic hitting the underlying part of the key. It's loud enough to be seriously annoying.
I think I'm going to go exchange it for another of the same model and check the new one at the store for any clacky keys.
I think I'll love this thing once I get the space bar thing fixed and get used to the position.
Carl on November 29, 2005 12:01 PMI have just bought one of these keyboards, and I have to say, it is great. However, ironically, I feel that the software lets it down a bit. The Intellipoint 5.3 software allows you to customise your "favourites" keys 1 - 5... fine you'd think, but it only allows you to specify a path to a file or a URL. This is different to the other keys (for example, the Web/Home key) whereby you can customise it to launch a file or run a command selected from a list. These commands (for example, Next Track, Calendar) are pretty handy... so I was disappointed that I couldn't use them in customising the "favourites" keys. I have raised a call with Microsoft about it...but until they update (or decide not to) the Intellipoint software, you can use a "Command" on the favourites keys by entering into the registry (BE WARNED - don't fiddle with the registry unless you know what you are doing and have backed it up first). I have found that the favourites keys have entries 78-82... therefore, to set the Next Track / Prev. Track for keys 4 and 5 respectively you need to add the following into the registry...
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\IntelliType Pro\EventMapping\81]
"Command"=dword:000002c0
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\IntelliType Pro\EventMapping\82]
"Command"=dword:000002bf
I found the command values by changing what the Web/Home key did and inspected the change in the registry - so it should be pretty obvious how to assign the commands you want against your favourites.
I hope this is useful to people!
Junket on December 13, 2005 6:48 AMI just purchased and hooked up a brand new Belkin OmniView and the volume and other special keys are definitely not working with the MS Ergo 4000. I tried the reinstallation of the HID service, this did not resolve the problem. I'm going to try some different things to get it to work and will post if I find the solution.
jv on December 20, 2005 8:03 AMA volume button fix.
I had the same problem with the keyboard's volume buttons not working. I also had a Genius mouse (Netscroll+ Superior) installed which had volume buttons. I uninstalled the Genius driver and the keyboard's buttons leapt back into life.
So, there's maybe something plugged in that's usurping the volume function.
Cool. This has taken me ages to figure out.
W.
William on December 20, 2005 10:58 AMThe following fix worked for me!!
MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000: Volume Control Keys not working...
Volume control seems to work fine if you start the "HID Input Service".
If you are not able to start it (happened to me), fire up the registry
editor and find:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\HidServ\Parameters
If there's a string called "ServiceDll" delete it, and create a new one
(expandable string named "ServiceDll") with this value:
%SystemRoot%\System32\hidserv.dll
Gary
Gary on December 29, 2005 10:46 AMStill no luck with special function keys through my Belkin USB KVM switch. The keyboard works if it's directly attached to a computer, but still not finding a solution to have the special function keys working through a KVM switch. If anyone knows of a workaround please post )and an email would be much appreciated)!
jv on January 2, 2006 2:36 AMThe post by Gary worked for me too. I had the same issue with the volume buttons...
My problem was I could not start the HID service...
After adding the registry value that Gary mentioned:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\HidServ\Parameters
If there's a string called "ServiceDll" delete it, and create a new one
(expandable string named "ServiceDll") with this value:
%SystemRoot%\System32\hidserv.dll
Then starting the HID service through the control panel, the volume button worked great.
Thanks Gary!
It is lame, however, that these newer keyboards moved the CapsLock and other Lock indicator lights OFF THE FREAKING KEYBOARD.
Scott Hanselman on January 9, 2006 3:23 AMI am typing this off my natural pro ... I love it still!
I am trying out the new 4000 just yesterday and my first impression has not been good. It seems to be a bit far apart and the spacebar takes so much effort to press down. Maybe it needs a little breaking in.
Anyway, I've been looking for the natural pro replacement as well (I'm a developer also) ... I hope the 4000 is it.
luda.
Luda on January 11, 2006 4:07 AMMy current keyboard is the Pro model, and I knew I would need to upgrade it at some point. I was quite upset by the mangled configuration of the PgUp/Dn and diamond cursor clusters, so was quite happy when this new MS Natural keyboard appeared. No only that, I’ve just upgraded my displays, which are now black and silver, so the world was going to be color-coordinated too!
I've used the keyboard for a day now, and I find that my right hand often lands in the wrong place when returning from the cursor keys. I pulled out my trusty ruler, and discovered that there's a difference in distance between the banks.
- Between the centers of F and J, the Pro has 9.8cm, while the Ergo has 10.3cm: a difference of 0.5cm (just under 1/4").
- The centers of 6 and 7 on the Ergo are kind of ambiguous, so I've measured the distance from 5 to 8. On the Pro it's 8.3, while the Ergo is 8.8: again a difference of 5cm.
- From V to M on the Pro is 10.6cm, while the Ergo is 11.1cm: again 5cm.
I was wondering whether the angle was different, and it appears not. However, that extra half-centimeter (just under 1/4") will take some adjustment. I’m almost tempted to return it, and then pick up a few cheap Pros on ebay, but I think I can live with this change. It will just make it difficult when I switch to my other machines that have older incarnations of the Natural keyboard (both Pro and original). I have no difficulty switching from a Natural keyboard to non-split designs, or to my laptop, so I don’t anticipate too many troubles.
Mike Hanson
a href="http://www.boxsoft.net"http://www.boxsoft.net/a
Pardon my silly question, but will this keyboard (the basic functionality) work with Linux? I happen to be a developer with Linux being my primary development environment, but I would like to have a comfortable keyboard.
Nadya on January 24, 2006 6:18 AMNadya-- absolutely! Most of the special keys should work as well, they're just USB keyboard scancodes.
Jeff Atwood on January 24, 2006 8:05 AMI arrived here looking for a fix for my keyboard's volume hotkeys not working. I have a Comfort Curve Keyboard 2000 with the problem described here. I removed a Labtec keyboard with media control keys that worked so maybe that's the problem. I'll try Gary's HID registry fix, thanks :)
PS - I find it misleading that the box for my keyboard says it works out of the box, but I had to download the IntelliType software (not included with the keyboard!) to get any of the hotkeys working :/
Mark Fawcett on January 25, 2006 12:17 PMThanks Gary, your registry/service fix worked for me :D Cheers mate!
Mark Fawcett on January 25, 2006 12:31 PMI've been having many difficulties with my Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, USB version, with Win2K on a Dell Latitude D600.
At first, it would go along just fine for a little while, then the device or driver would suddenly quit responding to keystrokes---then equally suddenly would randomly and rapidly repeats a keystroke or combination of keystrokes. A single tap of the backspace key could back out half a page of documentation. Thank God for "undo"! At some point after that my entire system would lock up. Nothing fixed it but a cold boot, and sometimes not even then would it behave.
Lately it's been worse, though.
Now any use of the "c" key (including Ctrl+C) launches the shortcut programmed in the My Favorites button #2. Something is also launching Excel, but I have no button programmed to launch it.
I disconnected the 4000 and tested my system with a Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite. Everything was fine. (I needed to do this to make sure some Windows updates weren't causing the problem.) I hot-plugged the 4000 again and started typing a message in Lotus Notes. Excel and the browser shortcut both launched apparently randomly, as did another application programmed into My Favorites button 1. With the 4000 still connected, using the Elite, none of these behaviors occured---they only happened when using the 4000.
Ctrl+Z launches the Show My Favorites window, but when that's closed, performs the intended undo. (This happens consistently, as does the Ctrl+C.)
Ctrl+I minimizes the active window.
I had written down several other behaviors too (something to do with the 'o' key, and 'r') but at the moment don't have the information on hand. Not that it would add anything useful; the above problems are show-stoppers enough.
What could be causing this? There are no recognized conflicts.
I would MUCH rather fix the problem than give up the keyboard.
Regarding a couple of recent posts, I have IntelliType installed--but there are two folders in my Program Files directory. One is labeled Microsoft IntelliType Pro, the other is Microsoft IntelliType Pro _5.3_ and they're both dated 12/9/2005. That was the day I first used the keyboard. Are both these folders supposed to exist together, or could this be the problem?
Fox Cole on January 26, 2006 2:57 AMI've been having many difficulties with my Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, USB version, with Win2K on a Dell Latitude D600.
I see you tried the same laptop with a different keyboard and it worked fine. So we can rule out the laptop as a cause. Have you tried the MS Ergo on a different computer to see if it exhibits the same behavior?
I can't get a peep out of the feedback e-mail address provided by Microsoft.
I'm not sure. You could try uninstalling the current version, then installing the older version of Intellitype (try a Google search for the version you want) and then uninstalling that, too.
Also, have you tried your keyboard on a different computer to see if it exhibits the same behavior?
Jeff Atwood on January 30, 2006 8:24 AMRegarding the above question about IntelliType Pro...
I went back to Microsoft's keyboard support site yet again (I check with them every so often) and found a new release of IntelliType, version 5.5, so I downloaded and installed it. It was then that I realized it doesn't install over itself, nor is there an uninstall option except from Add/Remove Programs, which only contains the most recent installed version.
Now I'm convinced I need to remove those two older versions, but what more do I need to do besides deleting those two folders and contents? Surely there must be some cleanup involved before I do a fresh install of the new version.
For the record, after I installed the new version and tried my 4000, every application or URL tied to a Favorites button launched right away... no longer needing some random key pressed. (I know it's not actually random, that some mapping misdirection occurs, but it just seems random.)
Sometimes multiple instances launched, so I really couldn't get past all those launches to see whether anything else could actually be done.
Also for the record, the keyboard works just fine when I'm typing in my Windows password. It's after Windows launches (or some other point in the startup) that it seems to begin its wacky behavior.
Help!!!! I need some advice on where to go for help with this. I can't get a peep out of the feedback e-mail address provided by Microsoft. I guess they only respond if you're endorsing their shiny new product, not having problems with it.
:-(
I'm having luck with the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 keyboard with an IOGear GCS1732 KVM switch, much like the reviewer at Amazon.com said.
Paul Mischler on February 2, 2006 1:27 AMI was really liking this keyboard when I saw it on sale on one of the deal sites. The reviews looked good, but some of the comments on this blog have me wondering if I should purchase it.
Is the Spacebar always stiff, or does it get better after a "break in"?
Do the volume-mute-play-rev-fwd keys work with Winamp?
Im currently using a Belkin ergonomic keyboard, and some of the keys are pretty stiff and sometimes dont even register. Time for a new keyboard, is this the one? :)
monkeyboy on February 2, 2006 11:13 AMYou could try uninstalling the current version, then installing the older version of Intellitype (try a Google search for the version you want) and then uninstalling that, too.
Hmm. When I uninstall 5.5, it still leaves its folder there. I don't have any good tools to tell what else it may have left behind. But I'll go try reinstalling and uninstalling 5.3. The versionless folder must contain settings; it only has 3 files and is sitting in the Documents and Settings directory for All Users.
Back to the keyboard. I tried it on my cubicle neighbor's computer, which is a desktop Dell Optiplex GX150 running Win2K SP4 (same OS version as mine). Same problems.
It finally dawned on me that it's behaving as if my Alt key presses itself down after every keystroke. The key itself appears to move freely and there is no debris that I can see, but I wonder if it's a hardware problem after all.
By the way, monkeyboy asked about the space bar (in one Amazon.com review, the reviewer mentioned stiff keys). Mine are all just fine, absolutely no trouble with stiffness anywhere... I just have trouble getting the keyboard to work! Maybe this Alt key thing is related, though. Maybe there's a manufacturing quality control problem. (The design itself is superb, very well engineered.)
Fox Cole on February 3, 2006 1:17 AMI said "Same problems." I don't really know that for sure, but I do know there are still problems. I couldn't test it out long enough to know whether the keystroke-repetition behavior still happens, but I did, of course, notice the alt-key thing. (Actually I'd figured that part out a few days ago, but noticed it again using my co-worker's machine.)
I tried it on my cubicle neighbor's computer, which is a desktop Dell Optiplex GX150 running Win2K SP4 (same OS version as mine). Same problems.
If you can duplicate the issue with another computer, it's very likely to be a hardware problem in my opinion. It is the only variable, after all..
Jeff Atwood on February 3, 2006 2:18 AMJust getting back to follow up on this---
Yes, it was a hardware problem. Or a combination of hardware problems... but anyway, right now I'm using a brand new replacement and it works perfectly. If I recall correctly, though, last time it took a little while for the errant behaviors to start---the keystroke-recognition-and-repetition thing. But I believe if it were going to happen, it should have by now.
So I am cautiously optimistic that this 4000 and I will be together for a very long time. I really do love how it feels (which, if you've read any of my earlier posts, you may have guessed ;-)
Cheers!
---Much happier Fox
Nooo! I spoke too soon! It's doing it again!
Fox Cole on February 10, 2006 11:27 AMWhat I mean is it's doing the random bouts of not registering keystrokes and then wildly repeating strokes.
If the same thing happens this time as with the other 4000, its behavior will degrade over the next few days and will bring in the other problems (such as the Alt key default, and launching programs). Right now I can type for 5-10 minutes before the problem kicks in. Soon I will have to start rebooting to get it to stop, and then rebooting won't work... the problem will continue across boots.
So why did getting a new piece of hardware make any difference? And why did it take so many hours for the original problem to begin?
Once again it's looking like a driver conflict of some sort---but that leaves us wondering which driver, and why, and what to do about it, and how the problem behaviors could have built up from one session to the next.
---Crushed and saddened Fox
Fox Cole on February 10, 2006 12:10 PMPoor Fox!~
Fox I would suggest trying it on a machine with a different OS, possibly without Intellitype installed.
Hardware wise perhaps there is an issue with the usb port current/voltage that is cooking your keyboard? Borrow your Pointy Haired bosses' thumb drive and plug it into the same usb port you've been using for the 4000. If the thumb drive gets fried too just tell Mr. Pointy hair that it needs a new battery.
Finally a Grand Hurah for Gary. Gary if I may suggest you could write a little code to make the registry patch and then you can then sell it to Microsoft and retire to some friendly programming environment such as India. I hear they treat programmers well there and apparently lots of jobs.
I love this keyboard. I will fight for it. I will die for it. I will call it Julie and marry it. I sing to it every night when we're done coding.
-s:)
zampaz on February 17, 2006 1:30 AMSo i recently bought this keyboard (ergo 4000) and after having it for a day i returned it...
It was extremely nice to type with( wow duh ) BUT PROBLEMS involving using more than 2 keys at a time ie. games.
You could hold down the first two, lets say W and A in a game like Desert Combat (BF1942 mod) and your plane would Fly and use Rudder to turn left, but you cant roll at the same time...
Same goes for any other game, no more than 2 KEYS AT A TIME!
Even though i returned it, i liked it so much that if anyone knows a fix for it, i will HAVE to buy it back.
TAz00 on February 18, 2006 6:06 AMIt was extremely nice to type with( wow duh ) BUT PROBLEMS involving using more than 2 keys at a time ie. games.
Hmm, that's strange. There are a handful of key combinations that don't work. One is listed above:
I'm trying to reverse the car while looking backwards (involves pressing 3 keys): Q, E, and Down (arrow key). You can't push this combination of keys together!
However, I play Battlefield 2 a lot with WASD and I haven't had any problems at all.
Use the "Key This" program to test key combinations:
http://www.retroblast.com/files/keythis110.zip
Jeff Atwood on February 18, 2006 9:08 AMI have the natural ergonomic 4000, it is connected to an IBM thinkpad that is running xp. My problem is that the system is not seeing the keyboard. It sees it but the driver is not being installed correctly. I have tried loading it from the CD ver 5.3 no good, and I have downloaded ver 5.5, still no good. Any suggestion on what else to try to see if it works? Software seems to be loaded correctly, but it is just the driver that is not loading correctly.
Eddie on February 22, 2006 2:22 AMI got one of these a week or so ago, it's great...
Someone mentioned the spacebar being stiff; don't worry, after a few hours it smooths out nicely.
I couldn't get the previous/next track buttons (the back/forwards button remapped in IntelliType 5.5) to work in Winamp 5. Worked fine in cdplayer and Winamp 2. Eventually fixed the problem; enable Winamp's Global Hotkeys, then, in winamp.ini, change the appropriate bit beneath [gen_hotkeys] to:
action13=ghkdc prev
hotkey13=2214
action14=ghkdc next
hotkey14=2215
This maps the browser forward/back buttons (the codes you actually get) to previous/next track.
Michael on February 25, 2006 7:30 AMTO MICHAEL:
are you sure it's the bar that broke in, or is that you got used to it? mine is still stiff after 5 hours of intense using (and to be honest i find every key much stiffer than my logitech g15 :( )...after how many hours did yours get smoother?
thanks
My first impression is that it's very comfortable. This is my first experience with a natural keyboard. But I too find that you have to press the spacebar unbelievable hard to get it to go down. Very, VERY annoying and might force me to return it. Maybe it's the way I type because sometimes I almost press forward with my thumb when I press the space bar down, but it's almost as if the plasic from the spacebar is pressing against the center dividing plastic. I might have to try a little lubricant or something. I'll be curious if others find that it goes away.
Bryan on March 7, 2006 12:32 PMDoes anyone have the issue with pressing the letters c, z and period? When ever i press c, cz is inputted and vice versa for z. When i press period,
./ is displayed...
Fox I would suggest trying it on a machine with a different OS, possibly without Intellitype installed.
I only have access to the one OS, Win2K, but did try uninstalling Intellitype. Didn't help. :-(
Hardware wise perhaps there is an issue with the usb port current/voltage that is cooking your keyboard? Borrow your Pointy Haired bosses' thumb drive and plug it into the same usb port you've been using for the 4000. If the thumb drive gets fried too just tell Mr. Pointy hair that it needs a new battery.
I use the USB ports frequently for such things... my jump drive, PDA charge cable, a little handheld neck massager, a heated cuff to wrap around my wrist or elbow, a mini optical mouse (can you tell I like gadgets?)... so I know for sure they're good.
Still stymied. I wish I could raise someone, anyone, at Microsoft to help debug this behavior. (I know, I know. Silly thought.)
But thanks for the ideas!
---Fox (still trying whenever I have time)
I also have an odd problem with my new keyboard. When I type the "3" (above the keyboard part) or the "/" key it comes through as "/3". The 3 on the numeric keypad works fine. [Enter] and "x" both come though as x[Enter]. Very frustrating.
I even plugged the keyboard into another (much older) computer and got exactly the same results.
New machine: Dell GX620 - WinXP Pro /w IntelliType 5.3
Old Machine: Dell GX200 - Win2000 Pro, IntelliType not installed.
Does anyone have a fix for this very odd issue?
Mike
Mike Smith on April 3, 2006 7:23 AMIf you got the same results on two totally different computers, the only variable left is the keyboard-- it may be defective.
Jeff Atwood on April 3, 2006 7:25 AMAs a follow up to my post on March 7 (about 6 posts above)...
I’ve had the keyboard for about a month and a half now and the sticky space bar went away after about 2 weeks (I can’t remember how long exactly). It’s no longer a problem to me.
Bryan on April 16, 2006 12:28 PMHey, it's me again!
Remember all those problems I was having? (If not, look for all the Fox Cole posts above... if you can stomach it.) It seems they're fixed. It was a hardware issue, but not the keboard's.
I'm not sure "fixed" is the right word, because my solution was accidental and---well, a bit unconventional. I was using my laptop undocked, got up to get coffee, caught my foot in the power cord and pulled the machine off my desk. (Broke the housing around the battery and skewed the monitor a little, both fixed by tech support.)
No problems after that!
Well, maybe that solution is a little conventional, after all. The traditional fix for poor TV reception used to be to whack the side of the set.
"If it doesn't work, hit it." I'm sure somebody said that once upon a time.
Anyway, I've been using my 4000 trouble-free for over two weeks now and am very happy with it. And relieved that I don't have to go back to the old clacky Elite with its tiny keys.
---Fox
foxcole on May 16, 2006 10:38 AMI used Microsoft Keyboard personally, it was a real fun and It's an excellent keyboard. But if you say, there is a lot ergonomic sense in it, i am sorry i will not agree on that...:), i mean it.
-Usman
Usman Ahmad on June 7, 2006 12:26 PMIf you are using this keyboard with a Belkin KVM I got my hotkeys working by plugging it into the Device 1 USB slot rather than the keyboard slot.
JM on June 12, 2006 5:51 AMThankyou Jamie for posting:
"rundll32.exe hid.dll,HidservInstaller /install"
Thought my keyboard was broken but its solved the problem perfectly
Graham on June 14, 2006 5:04 AMThank you, JM! I was thinking of trying the USB port of my Raritan SwitchMan and for whatever reason hadn't done it yet. I think after spending most of the night extracting my old ps2 kvm set-up from the cable rats nest and so on my brain is getting squishy. Anyway, my special keys now work! Thank you!
ttiger on July 1, 2006 6:26 AMWarning to linux users:
This keyboard at present is somewhat of a bitch to configure, as there is no proper xkb geometry template for it, rendering a lot of the keys utterly useless. Xev doesn't register keypresses for any of the function keys, nor the back and forward thumb keys, or any of the silver multimedia keys up top. And of course, getting the zoom switch to work is a complete mystery.
The only support I can find for it is in a kde helper app called 'lineak', although its rather lacking at the moment.
A proper xkb geometry file needs to be created that includes all the keys, and a solution needs to be found to turn the flock key into a modifier and/or level changer, rather than dysfunctional altogether as it appears is the present solution.
Unfortnately, microsoft does make the best and cheapest ergonomic keyboards on the planet. Unfortuntaely, they of course don't consider linux users into the equation.
arias on July 30, 2006 9:04 AMJust picked mine up from Staples ($10 rebait, whoohoo) and I'm really digging the wrist rest.
Unlike most of you I seem to have avoided the fubar'd key cluster above the arrow keys as I just lost my natural keyboard elite to an errant glass of water. It lasted me 7 years, unbelievable.
I tried to take it apart and clean it but it looked complicated inside, and I figured it was time to move on. Anyone with some cleaning tips, let me know... maybe I can revive it.
My beef with it so far is the smaller enter key and I can't get the thing to work with my KVM at all. The box does say USB on it with no mention of P/S2 and I tried an adapter with it to no avail.
Maybe I'll go back and see if they have a USB/PS2 version.
Jason on August 1, 2006 11:49 AMRe: Microsoft Egronomic 4000 (wired - USB not wireless)
The hot keys don't work until I open up the Keyboard's properties and click "ok" .. then they work. Shouldn't the keyboard load on bootup? How can I get it to do that?
Hey...
I have one of these marvelous keyboards. I absolutely love the feel of it. I'm enamored with the leather palmrest.
Tragically, it is totally useless for gaming. Flying in the Battlefield series with WASD and the arrows is totally impossible, you cannot hold more than 2-3 keys at once. Also, SNES games on SNES9x are unplayable, like in Mario where you have to hold right, up, and then jump. It just doesn't work!
If anyone has suggestions on how to fix this please let me know at
dpresteg at gmail dot com
thanks
~misfit
Better linux support is on the way:
http://lwn.net/Articles/194015/
Stefan on August 12, 2006 11:13 AMJM: My Belkin switch beeps if I don't have something plugged into the USB keyboard slot. Did you experience this?
Mike on August 25, 2006 1:48 PMPROBLEM RESOLVED
I was able to resolve the problem with my Natural Egonomic Keyboard 4000 (see my August 6, 2006 posting).
It was solved by simply getting an updated (5.50661.0 12/1/05) driver from Microsoft's website. The driver that came with the keyboard was something like 5.3.
I hope that this helps someone else.
Alan
THANKS SO MUCH for the "rundll32.exe hid.dll,HidservInstaller /install" volume fix...worked in 3.2 nano-seconds!!! You saved the day! Thanks again.
Andre on September 9, 2006 5:00 AMFor those of you who want to do some mapping (especially of the Zoom toggle to scrolling), here is a good site:
http://paininthetech.com/hack_the_microsoft_natural_4000_keyboard
Enjoy.
Terry K on November 9, 2006 9:08 AMOoooh yeees, this keyboard is a great stuff.
It replaced my previous very old no name split keyboard.
I was looking for a replacement for some time, but there was no good one (I mean with PGUP/PGDOWN placed correctly - even Logitech didn't suit my preferences).
What is interesting many manufacturers incorrectly split the keyboard letting the "6" key be on the right side!!!! Sic!!!
I'm not a shill, but Best Buy has these in today's (1/21/07) Sunday ad for $29.99, down from $59.99. I had already purchased one on eBay for $19 ($34 after shipping) just a few days ago. I may re-sell the one from eBay, or keep both, just to have a spare. I haven't decided yet. FWIW, I owned the original Microsoft Natural Keyboard (IIRC, the first keyboard with the "reserved for future use" Windows key.) in the pre-Win95 days. I still have it in storage, although it's become quite discolored over the years. The difference between this keyboard and the Natural Pro was the row of blue keys at the top, which were missing on the original.
CLB on January 21, 2007 4:34 AManyone ever get the "not being able to use more than 2 keys at once in certain combos" issue worked out?
Lee on February 5, 2007 9:32 AMIt was then that I realized it doesn't install over itself, nor is there an uninstall option except from Add/Remove Programs, which only contains the most recent installed version.
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