Sex, Lies, and Software Development

April 8, 2009

Are there any programming jobs you wouldn't take? Not because the jobs didn't pay enough, had poor benefits, or limited upside -- but because the work itself made you uncomfortable? Consider the tale of one freshmeat.net writer:

Back in the old days (let's say 1996), I was just another Perl coder writing CGI scripts for a living. Well, pocket money's more like it, but okay. I wrote scripts for fun, I wrote them to make some cash, and I wrote them because I'm a geek and I love programming. Then, one day, I got a phone call from this company. A friend of mine had referred them to me, and they wanted me to write a CGI script. The gentleman I spoke with was very well mannered, very well educated -- the typical likeable manager.

After some talking, he came to the point. The CGI script I was to create was supposed to take an archive of images and make them searchable by topic. In itself nothing amazing, but when I asked, out of curiosity, what kind of images we were talking about, I was surprised to find out it was porn. Yes, porn.

I accepted the job, and life changed dramatically. Instead of friends saying "cool" or some coders I knew saying "nice script", they shied away, refused to talk to me, refused to look at the script. For a long time, I wondered why. This year, I went to a convention. I was just out there looking for new cool stuff, not much else. Everyone I talked to was friendly, and downright nice, right up until the point when I told them what I did for a living. Then they suddenly remembered they had something better to do.

And why? Does working on the adult part of the net mean I'm a scumbag? Does it mean I'm sleazy? Does it mean I'm untrustworthy? Does it mean my code is bad?

That was eight years ago. I wonder how the now over-thirty author of the original article is getting on in his career. Does he still write code for the adult industry? Somehow, I doubt it.

This isn't just random noodling on my part. I've almost been in the same situation. About ten years ago, I had an interview for a programming position with a prominent North Carolina based purveyor of adult products. After the interview, I asked my girlfriend (now my wife) how she would feel if I took a job that was, more or less, in the adult industry. Although she's flexible on almost every topic, this is one area where she had serious reservations. I think the operative words were "what will we tell our parents?" It's a fair question. For that matter, what do you tell your friends when they ask where you work? Your peers? It was enough to keep me from taking the job.

Years later, I encountered one of my previous coworkers who had taken a programming job there. It turns out I made the right choice, but not for the reasons you might think. There were technical and managerial problems on the job that far outstripped any effects from the unusual choice of industry. That said, when I asked him what the environment was like, working daily with adult products, he had a one word response: weird.

The adult industry does present interesting technical and scaling challenges, perhaps more interesting than building yet another line of business CRUD application for Yet Another MegaCorp. A recent Reddit discussion thread which asked if you designed a porn site, would you put it on your resume? had some excellent examples.

[Adult] sites have oodles of top-quality attributes to them; payment processing, secured content, username and password maintenance (especially self-service maintenance) rapid updates and, if your site was successful, some interesting scaling problems to engineer around.

I work for an [adult] site. It's going on my resume. Anybody I've told in a professional or semi-professional setting has been impressed and wanted to know the technical details about our server setup and bandwidth. I have yet to meet anybody, friend or prospective employer who was turned off by the thought of my serving up [adult content]. And I'm willing to say that I wouldn't work for someone who would judge me negatively because of it. I got into it because of the interesting scaling problems and potential for wisdom-of-crowds filtering and selection. And you know what, it's kinda fun.

I've worked in the [adult] industry for over 8 years. If I were to apply for a new job, you bet I would include it on my resume. I don't think I'd want to work for a company that couldn't see the benefit of having someone onboard that's worked with systems that must always work, have a known cost-per-minute of downtime, and are on a permanently continuous release cycle.

The general tone of the advice is that, if you choose to work in the adult industry, you have to tell white lies about your work -- small evasions about what your work is, and who it is for, depending on the audience. Invoke vague NDAs. Describe things in broad, general terms.

What if you saw this programming job listing:

  • Work from home on a large, high-traffic website with lots of challenging scaling problems.
  • Use the latest frameworks and technologies.
  • Set your own hours.
  • Excellent pay through wire transfer from an offshore account, with full benefits.

(I am not making any of this up, I'm actually summarizing a real job listing.) Seems like a fantastic programming job, right? But what if I told you this job listing was for an adult website? Would you still consider it?

I bring this up because I recently read a great in the trenches story about continuous deployment.

Our tests suite takes nine minutes to run (distributed across 30-40 machines). Our code pushes take another six minutes. Since these two steps are pipelined that means at peak we're pushing a new revision of the code to the website every nine minutes. That's 6 deploys an hour. Even at that pace we're often batching multiple commits into a single test/push cycle. On average we deploy new code fifty times a day.

My enthusiasm for this supreme feat of software engineering was tempered by the fact that, when I clicked through to find out more about the company that was doing such sophisticated software engineering, I learned that it's a 3D chat avatar system. A very.. sexy.. 3D chat avatar system. Just look at their ads to see what I mean:

IMVU ad

What is being sold here? I've even seen similar "sexy" IMVU ads with female 3D avatars in skimpy lingerie come up organically on my Fake Plastic Rock blog, of all places. I'm not the first person to make this connection, either.

A reader expressed their irritation with the IMVU ads that have been running in the sidebar recently. I was actually glad to see I wasn't the only one. They have a trashy, lowest-common-denominator feel to them. Kind of a "Welcome to Hoochie World" vibe. The ad has been running for over a month, and I've never seen a picture of a single male avatar. It's either the quasi-jailbait in a bikini, or a couple of skanks in a pseudosapphic embrace. Using a pretty girl to sell your stuff is perfectly reasonable, but doing it with such a lack of class gets on my nerves. I've never used the software, but the ads make me think their chat software is a world inhabited by l337-speaking teenage boys that would make the average FARK thread sound like the Mclaughlin Group by comparison.

The profile for IMVU user "hottiepie4life" makes it abundantly clear that IMVU, while not quite part of the adult industry per se, skirts awfully close to the edge of it. Enough to make me, personally, uncomfortable about working there, or talking to anyone who worked there. And it certainly colors and devalues my impression of the technical work going on there.

Maybe this is my problem. Does the subject matter dilute the excellent technical work the IMVU team might be doing? No. But at the same time, I can't help questioning the ultimate value of that work. I'm no prude. And I don't expect every programmer to be doing noble, selfless work for the good of humanity. All the same, it's difficult for me to respect software engineering in the service of such least common denominator interests.

Posted by Jeff Atwood
251 Comments

Is it any more ethical to work for a company that deliberately misleads its clients or under-quotes with the full knowledge they'll have to claw more money later on? Sales in general has a lot of ethical questions against it, because quite frankly in the lot of industries if you don't play those cards you don't make the sale because someone else does.
We take jobs on at companies that have those practices because they aren't the kind of questions we ask because they aren't within our remit, we like the tech and focus on the tech.

Coding up a system to distribute porn is one step in a more direct influence but it is just one step and I don't think it makes a great deal of difference because it isn't directly the act of doing it. Would you work at a company that processed credit card transactions even if they allowed the pornographic companies to use the service?

Being ethically consistent with indirect influences is a fallacy. We buy shoes made in sweat shops without knowing, we use electricity that was ultimately obtained through questionable sources, we rely on slave labour indirectly almost every day.
We're tainted by our circumstance of living in the first world.

Ergo, I'd say doing the tech for a porn company is the least of any ethical concerns. Those that do think it unethical haven't looked too much at their own indirect actions to see what crimes they're also indirectly committing.

Quarrelsome on April 9, 2009 2:01 AM

An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than sex. - Aldous Huxley

Therefore, you're a bore to programmers if you apply your intellectual prowess to serve porn to boring people.

Hey, nobody ever claimed that programmers are saints or know how to argue logically. ;D

chris on April 9, 2009 2:17 AM

An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than sex. - Aldous Huxley

Therefore, you're a bore to programmers if you apply your intellectual prowess to serve porn to boring people.

Hey, nobody ever claimed that programmers are saints or know how to argue logically. ;D

chris on April 9, 2009 2:21 AM

An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than sex. - Aldous Huxley

Therefore, you're a bore to programmers if you apply your intellectual prowess to serve porn to boring people.

Hey, nobody ever claimed that programmers are saints or know how to argue logically. ;D

chris on April 9, 2009 2:22 AM

Yowza, I triple posted. Sorry about that. Somebody please clean up my mess? :

chris on April 9, 2009 2:23 AM

Interesting how many people want to skirt around the root of the issue here.

All of this can be summed up with don't take a job you wouldn't be proud to have.

Lucas on April 9, 2009 2:29 AM

Does the subject matter dilute the excellent technical work the IMVU team might be doing? No. But at the same time, I can't help questioning the ultimate value of that work.

Why? Okay, S.O. is a great service. But other projects you've worked on... what was their content and why did it make your work valuable? So you write, for example, an app so a realtor can sell houses more easily? So friggin' what?

Anyway, this entire post is based on the false premise that there's something bad about porn relative to other industries. Archaic, prude, and disappointing.

Nick on April 9, 2009 2:38 AM

Mike (@#4) commented that it's a strange world where porn systems are seen as things to be hidden and weapons systems are plum jobs. I agree.

I'd have an easier time working for the porn industry than either weapons manufacturers or financial trading companies myself.

Austin Ziegler on April 9, 2009 2:39 AM

Voting down (err... if there was said feature) for being subjective and argumentative. Motion to close.

SO Fan on April 9, 2009 2:46 AM

When I graduated from college I said there were two things I didn't want to do. One was weapons development and the other was financial applications. I only kept one of those promises.

Christopher Baus on April 9, 2009 3:00 AM

Here we are teetering on the edge of Godwin's... I can barely stand it.

Herman on April 9, 2009 3:06 AM

@Isidore: Can you bring up a study backing your claims?

You'll be surprised at how many normal people (and couples!) watch/seek porn routinely or from time to time. If it is a rapist in the audience too, well, that's life. He may have been in the same school as you. Does this makes your school one that raises rapists?

S. on April 9, 2009 3:40 AM

I started making adult websites my senior year of high school. This was back in 1996.

I worked in the industry for about seven years, and went from website developer/designer to photographer and content provider.

Porn paid my way through college (yes it does that for some people).

It came to a crumbling halt in 2003. I decided to quit.

I've been on interview before where the manager found it very cool, entrepreneurial even.

However, I did find out that Clarity Consulting wouldn't hire me after I brought it up during the lunch interview.. They asked what the coolest thing I ever worked on was, and I told them about my former career. I only know this because I work with a consultant now who had heard about the guy who brought up porn at the interview and that was what led to him not getting an offer.

Mind you I wasn't a porn star. I shot pictures and video and ran a paid membership site for years and made a ton of money doing it.

But I guess some people just are put off by it.

I think that will change as my generation takes over managerial roles.

ManiacPsycho on April 9, 2009 3:51 AM

Porn is like an addiction. Taking that kind of job is no less worse than selling narcotics. It's probably worse because it eventually leads to rape, child pronography, destroys marriages, disrespects women, etc., etc.

Isidore where did you come up with this trash? Every man on the planet looks at porn occasionally, and yet only a tiny fraction are rapists or child abusers. Every guy you ever dated looked at porn - while you were dating him. Grow up.

Steve on April 9, 2009 3:58 AM

The reason is feels wierd is because it's about doing something wrong. All people have a conscience that tells them it's wrong, some just choose to do things that are contrary to their conscience. It can only hurt you in the long run.

Lance Roberts on April 9, 2009 4:01 AM

Porn is strange. Everybody is all moral about it, yet everyone owns it and watches it, even your parents.

There's also a lot of differences between countries. Here in the Netherlands we cannot understand how Janet Jacksons'on-stage revelation during the MTV awards means anything. Big deal. We see a lot more controversial stuff on public channels, also during the day. Yet, in the US it seemed to be a total outrage, the story of the year.

Make love not war. It is religion that skewed our view on sex. Sex is a great thing, not a forbidden fruit or immoral.

Ferdy on April 9, 2009 4:11 AM

Oh, and one more thing. One should not have to ask for permission from a g/f to work somewhere. What ever happened to real men!?

The pussification needs to stop.

Ferdy on April 9, 2009 4:15 AM

Hmm... seems more like a personal moral issue. However, there are much more disturbing jobs than porn. Scientology website? Casino site? Government contract?? Much more disturbing.

Also, I hear from friends that search quality engineers at Google see a lot of porn. It's just part of the job or something.

Leah Culver on April 9, 2009 4:53 AM

You pretty much have to make your moral decisions in life and deal with them. Part of that is defending them to people who want to judge you because your morals are not the same as (what they claim) theirs are.

Myself, I would have no moral problem working as a programmer for a porn outfit, and if someone gave me shit for it, I would tell them to grow up.

On the other hand, I did once interview for a company I wasn't sure I really wanted to work for: a retail tobacco chain (which shall remain nameless -- suffice to say they claimed to sell Cigarettes Cheaper than others). I was kind of glad when the interview didn't go that well (involving, as it did, a panel of interviewers, interviewing two candidates at the same time, and giving us some stupid standardized personality test as well).

One of the best bosses I ever worked for once had his own successful brewery that he founded. He sold out of it after around 10 years, because he wasn't comfortable with the fact that his best customers were alcoholics.

Now, having said all that, Jeff, I don't think you'd be getting all the flak you're getting in this thread if you hadn't claimed one thing (I'm no prude) and acted contrariwise -- judging others, and their work, for being involved with a company that *kinda*, *sorta* uses pseudo-sexy imagery to sell something. I mean, that's a hell of a tangential involvement in something you say you don't dislike to be looking down on them for it. That's not to say you wouldn't get flak for doing the judging in the first place, but to do so while claiming not to is just asking for it.

Atario on April 9, 2009 5:09 AM

I'd take a government/military job. Making weapons more precise only kills fewer people, IMO.

Also, to the masses of unoriginal comments about Jeff being a prude: I'm no prude, but... is an idiom. It's a transitional phrase, to provide a contrasting background to what he's about to say. Maybe he is a prude, so what? You don't win the argument by proving someone is a prude. That doesn't discount their opinion. This isn't high school, where the popular opinion is right.

I also felt like Jeff was taking an honest look at himself, and not just condemning the porn business outright. It's easy to claim racism is bad and to judge others for it, harder to admit maybe you have an issue yourself, much harder (I would think) to bring it up publically.

Jeremy Nunn on April 9, 2009 5:12 AM

I wouldn't work on a project where I'd constantly second-guess my good judgment for being a part of it.

That said, I try not to be so thin-skinned about it in the first place. I have a colleague who bailed on a project because it promoted Christianity (it was a church website, after all). I scoffed at that decision at first because I thought he was being a little over-sensitive but later just accepted that people are always going to have different values and tolerances. My original reaction was a bit hypocritical.

My list of offensive material may be very different from others. I'd work on a porn site, a defense site or a religious site (well, as long as it weren't some wacko fringe-group sacrificing goats or something) and not lose any sleep over it. I'd work on a political site for a group with different political views from mine. I won't do anything for the fur industry, the tobacco industry, or companies that implement spyware. That's not a complete list, but my point is that it's my list and I don't expect everyone to agree or even be able to make sense of it.

I do think we should all try a bit harder to respect each others' values and decisions, though. It's a shame that some people are so insecure that they will refuse a job to someone else who doesn't share ALL of the same personal values. I emphasize ALL because I realize that certain obvious values like work ethics do have an impact in the office.

Lloyd on April 9, 2009 5:23 AM

Ok, I get that working for the kind of people who start porn sites might be quite annoying. That part alone would make me consider carefully whether I wanted a job in that industry.

But that aside - who gives a flying rat's rotunda?

What will we tell our parents? Really? Grow up and tell them you work for a porn site. Most likely they'll ask you why, and you can explain that the technical challenges are really interesting, and it's a growth industry. If they can't understand that, who cares? Are you really in need of your parents approval still?

Would you put it on a resume? Um, yeah. Anyone who's interested in my technical ability will likely appreciate the skill I had to have to work in that industry. Hell, they'll probably go home and check out your site.

News flash, folks - MOST PEOPLE LIKE PORN. Just because our society is ashamed to admin they like sex isn't a very good reason to turn down a job you'd otherwise take.

Darren on April 9, 2009 5:29 AM

It's a cop out not to address the fact that nearly all programmers are men.

Second, we are *so* damn lucky that we can choose. Most people are stuck with whatever pays the mortgage.

I thought it was weird the that the women in that one accounting company were checking out p0rn, but I was just a contractor. I wish I could finish that story in Penthouse fashion..

[REDACTED] on April 9, 2009 5:43 AM

i thought the internet's sole purpose was to distribute porn?

Joe Beam on April 9, 2009 5:53 AM

I wouldn't take a job within the porn industry only because I would be afraid what future employers might think. Would employers look down on this? I would probably say that most would.

Kyle on April 9, 2009 6:05 AM

While working for a web dev shop, I refused to work on an online gambling site for ethical reasons. I'm sure that would be less frowned upon than porn, but I just felt it was The Wrong Thing To Do(tm).

Travis on April 9, 2009 6:08 AM

Are you kidding me? This is just silly and ridiculous. Your logic is because you are prudish and embarrassed by sex then:

if you choose to work in the adult industry, you have to tell white lies about your work -- small evasions about what your work is, and who it is for, depending on the audience. Invoke vague NDAs. Describe things in broad, general terms.

This is horrible logic. Many, many people work in the adult entertainment and are very open about and happy with their work. This is just pompous, judgmental drivel. As far as everyone going on about how you are singling the sex industry out and IMVU but yet say nothing about the military industrial complex, Big Pharma, and so forth -- I think they make an interesting point. Very few people have died from having an orgasm.

Ok, that's porn. Now for IMVU. Most of what you've written in the past year or so has been a succession of posts either championing mediocrity or anti-intellectualism. You made pretty rude comment about IMVU, something about it not being a cure for cancer, it got on HN, and now you are echoing it. News flash: SO is not a cure for cancer; nowhere near it. As far as the technical impressiveness; yes it's a nice site but Phil Haack got 5%-10% of the way done on an SO clone in about 5 minutes; in fact there are at least two other SO clones in Russian and Mandarin.

The IMVU guys are doing some pretty reasonably interesting technical stuff. Making a judgment about a site based on a profile of one of its users is pretty silly. Although, to be honest, that example profile you cite is pretty tame. Not everyone is a Pentecostal like you or whatever it is. Do you dismiss SecondLife because some users have similar profiles? PhDs do work for SL. But maybe you would see this also as a black mark. Of course technical knowledge is irrelevant in programming and is something to be discouraged.

Charles on April 9, 2009 6:17 AM

This all seems like alot of hot air to me. A job is a job either way you look at it. And for those people that have not taken a job and shunned an industry just because of their moral objections; I think that is weak. If they really cared about women in the porn industry being abused (or had some other gripe with this world) then they would get up and do something about it. No accepting the job is just the cowards way out.

Personally, I would take the job and If I had any serious objections then I would raise then with the company. If that failed then I would quit and protest in increasingly public ways.

But thats just me.

Robert on April 9, 2009 7:14 AM

Careful with whom to tell and how to tell it. So basically, like being gay.

Now, being a software developer and gay, I suppose own my choice of careers has been predestined all along.

juno106 on April 9, 2009 7:16 AM

It is not like your text editor supports images. You get to code on some of the most progressive systems there are. Sure, some are probably pretty hobbled, but some have to be akin to youtube in scale. It is a job, who cares.

This post would be more interesting and relevant i believe, if the question were not if you would work for adult, but if you wold start your own startup that was in a fringe industry like that.

Anony on April 9, 2009 7:19 AM

My company won't contract with people in the porn industry, companies that make only military hardware/software, and certain pharmaceutical companies. I think that choosing what you want to contribute to in life and in the world is more important than a paycheck or a resume.

-Max

Max Kanat-Alexander on April 9, 2009 7:22 AM

It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter. — Nathaniel Borenstein.

E.Z. on April 9, 2009 7:30 AM

How is imvu an adult site? I've never been there but the ad makes it look like it is for kids.

James on April 9, 2009 7:48 AM

Only in American, the same idiots that jerk-off to those sites pretend that sex is a bad thing!

I wish was a part of the adult internet :)

thedp on April 9, 2009 7:51 AM

I think it's a matter of what you're ashamed of. I'm currently working for a defence contractor. It's a nice company, but I have far, far more moral reservations about it than I would working for the porn industry. But it's paying work, and I need the experience, so I'm doing the best I can, and when I'm ready, I'll move on. But I think if I was put on a more offensive project, I'd move sooner rather than later.

And to all those who are complaining about the exploitation of women, the same could be said of the cosmetic industry, plastic surgery industry, fashion industry, marketing industry and media industry. In fact it's hard to think of an industry that *doesn't* exploit women in some way.

And porn is not like an addiction, any more than World of Warcraft or Web-Surfing is like an addiction. It may be possible to display addiction-like symptoms to these things, but if you have any kind of mental, emotional and/or social problems, you could become addicted to almost anything. People become addicted to collecting stamps, for crying out loud. On the addiction scale, porn is almost certainly a much healthier addiction than computer games, collecting collectables or cannabis.

And finally: porn is at BEST a total waste of time and resources? Depends on your end goals.
If your end goal is pleasure/satisfaction, it's actually fairly efficient. For the same endorphin boost, you'd have to eat a fairly large chocolate bar. And you can't eat the same chocolate the next time you're hungry.
If your end goal is to earn money, it could be argued that all sports, eating out, and an awful lot of conversation is also a total waste.

Tom on April 9, 2009 8:21 AM

Basically, if you find yourself wanting to lie or evade about working in a certain industry, it may not be the job for you. But it's almost certainly the job that has the problem.

Tom on April 9, 2009 8:23 AM

I meant *NOT the job that has the problem*
Freudian Slip there...

Tom on April 9, 2009 8:24 AM

Yes, porn affects people in some curious ways. Sex sells!!!

code monkey on April 9, 2009 8:36 AM

I declined to even interview at a self-described e-mail marketing company for this very reason.

Rob Allen on April 9, 2009 8:37 AM

This past year I had an opportunity to not only work for an adult site, but to take an equity interest. While the industry did give me some pause for the reasons you mentioned, I declined not because of the content but because the business partners were, well, slimy.

As for being paid from an offshore account that you mentioned... run away from that regardless of the industry. This past year has seen more previously safe offshore account strategies pierced by the IRS. Who wants that legal hassle?

Charles on April 9, 2009 8:49 AM

the ad makes it look like it is for kids.

Slutty, slutty kids, if the advertising is to be believed.

I have more respect for a company that is unapologetically adult, not trying to have it both ways and skirt the edge of what's accepted.

Particularly since IMVU is, apparently, directed at kids and teenagers.

Jeff Atwood on April 9, 2009 8:51 AM

What a strange world we live in where porn sites are suspect, but defense contracting for gun wielding robots is a plum assignment.

Mike on April 9, 2009 8:52 AM

who wrote leisure suit larry? interview them and see how people treat them.

Darren Kopp on April 9, 2009 8:52 AM

Depends on the degree of the adult content. Some is mild and normal, some, well not so normal.

I don't think I would work for a company that provided adult content unless I was desparate.

What was the name of that site again?

Brian

Brian on April 9, 2009 8:52 AM

for example, a missile guidance system whose sole
purpose is to kill people?

Actually, a missile guidance system's sole purpose is to kill the correct people, (bad guys) and not kill the wrong people (good or innocent guys.) Or, even better, scare the crap out of the bad people so that they aren't so bad any more.

That seems a noble pursuit to me.

Jessica Boxer on April 9, 2009 8:56 AM

No, I won't work anywhere that I wouldn't feel comfortable promoting the products being sold. It isn't fair to the employer because I couldn't put my heart into my work.

I've turned down lucrative jobs because I couldn't morally advocate what they were promoting.

David on April 9, 2009 8:57 AM

I think I could work for the adult industry as a temp job. Let's be honnest, everybody needs money and if I can bypass two or three peers by not being ashame of going to an interview I would need, I would go. I consider myself a good programmer, but I'm quite bad in interview.

But I wouldn't let a stable job like I have now to go there, nor would I plan to work there for months or years. But not for the reason you mentionned. No matter how good is the challenge of coding something, what I like is the feed back of user having a great time using what I did. And some how I wouldn't like getting feedback from on a adult site experience... :P


But in answer to the initial question : Are there any programming jobs you wouldn't take?

I turned down an interview in a company that build equipment to target enemies in assault vehicule. I would probably have had the job, but I could never work in such an industry.

Franck on April 9, 2009 8:58 AM

I was surprised by the conclusion in this post. One of the great things about code is that IT is in fact the lowest common denominator among programmers. Whatever industry one is in you can show a bit of code to someone whose industry speaks a different business language and perhaps has a different set of concerns but damn, code is code and you can understand and appreciate another's work in a way the guys in suits from different worlds might not be able to. You just took a shit all over that.

I'm not saying that there are moral limits but given that porn probably plays some small part in the lives of many of the people posting here and the, as Jon Warren points out, often cutting edge work these guys do, I think it is a pretty silly place to draw the line. If you are morally against porn that is one thing but if you are just grafting some high level holier-than-though attitude on to the embarrassment you would have for working for such a place then, man, you are just lame.

danny on April 9, 2009 9:00 AM

Wow. I have been reading your blog for a long time, never has one of your posts so close for me and at such a perfect time.

Just yesterday I received an offer for such a job after a couple of interviews.

If you think that is weird or uncomfortable, try working for a gay porn site (and being a straight male).
I'm currently considering it, because although it is strange, my coworkers are all very nice and actually seem to know what they are doing. The owner of the company is actually the lead programmer.

I am currently stuck because they want me to move to that city (it's a two-hour drive) and I've never been alone in my life. They though pay amazingly well , considering I'm only 19, with even better benefits to match.

I will take the job as well because of those technical reasons you stated. It seems interesting to have to get over all those challenges that are inherent in a website like that/

Bill on April 9, 2009 9:04 AM

I have worked for a gambling site doing some pretty challenging real time streaming stuff. I would have no problems engineering systems to sell porn.

Carbon credits,government identity card schemes,the inland revenue or some useless taxpayer fleecing Quango.. that's a different matter. I guess it depends on your personal morality.

Ryan Roberts on April 9, 2009 9:09 AM

You just took a shit all over that.

On the contrary. I believe code has the power to change the world. Is your code changing the world for the better or for the worse?

That's the question.

Jeff Atwood on April 9, 2009 9:09 AM

I think the argument isn't that IMVU has less value because it's an adult targeted site, but that it's an adult targeted site that has little to no class. Their example avatars look like Bratz hookers, which is unsettling at best.

As far as working on systems that guide missiles, it's usually considered acceptable because very few people actually see the aftermath of a missile. When they hear missile guidance system it usually brings to mind a fairly romanticized image of a big ol' missile flying through the air bobbing and weaving over the terrain. If you were to say I designed a system that allows the military to kill people or destroy infrastructure at a specific location,” the reaction might be similar. There's no good euphemism for adult entertainment, because there really isn’t a romanticized image of porn, the person immediately has a vivid image in their head the kind of content your work provides. This is compounded by the fact that, generally, sexuality is considered a far more taboo topic than violence.

Would I work on a porn site? This is the kind of question that I don’t think I could answer until it came up personally for me. Even as a hypothetical, I want to say that I would do it no problem, but I know I’m making the decision based on the fact that I consider myself fairly liberal when it comes to these things. When the chips were down, however, I’d really start to take a look at what’s in my hand.

Tom on April 9, 2009 9:12 AM

Blah what are you doing that's so great? SO is ok but sheesh Digg and similar sites are much more popular and they aren't considered great programmers or curing cancer; you sure aren't. In fact, you'd probably be against doctors getting the knowledge to cure cancer, after all, medicine is hard, let's go shopping. Learn to be a little more self critical rather than rest on your laurels as if you are the Mark Twain or T.S. Elliot of programming blogs, because that you ain't.

Metaphor Monster on April 9, 2009 9:16 AM

I work for an industry almost as shady as the adult entertainment industry -heck, it might be worse. I work for a large insurance company. Our customers pay us the srew them, and it is the kind of screwing that doesn't make you want to light up afterwards. It's the kinda that makes you take long showers in the fetal position. I mean really... which industry is worse? It really troubles me how people are suffering and denied treatment for stuff they desperately need, and every year, their premiums go up. At least in porn, your customers get what they paid for.

I Am 8 Bit on April 9, 2009 9:17 AM

Working in the games industry has a lot of stigma attached. Not from other programmers but from the general public who think I have it easy and play games all day.

313 on April 9, 2009 9:17 AM

Jeff, why does adult entertainment == lowest common denominator? That kind of thinking doesn't come from rationality or logic, but from the ignorant fear of (for instance) the 16th century Catholic church. It's funny, this blog entry has had the opposite effect of what you described for me: for all your programming prowess and excellent writing ability, I now think less of you because of your close-mindedness and prudishness.

And for the record, I don't work in the adult entertainment industry, or know any one who does, or anything like that. I just used to read Regina Lynn's WONDERFUL sex tech column in Wired, and it's helped me appreciate that there's nothing wrong in selling products to adults that let them have some fun once the kids have gone to bed. You should check out some of her old entries (she no longer blogs for Wired), if you're willing to open your mind to the possibility that there's nothing wrong with combining brilliant engineering and getting off.

Jeremy on April 9, 2009 9:18 AM

Interesting post. I probably wouldn't accept a full-time programming gig in the adult industry, not because I have personal issues with the industry, but because I know there are a number of people who do and I wouldn't want to straddle myself with guilt-by-association, at least not unless I were desperate for a job.

However, I also probably wouldn't hesitate to accept a contract job from an adult industry company. At this point in my career, I can't put my all my projects on a resume anyway, and I'm sure that the work could pose some interesting technical challenges and I'm not particularly prudish or easily offended.

On the other hand, I've done some work for the Defense industry and the military over the years, and I wouldn't go back to that industry right now unless I had absolutely no other choice. Not because it's an industry centered around killing people, but rather because it's a horribly inefficient, oversized bureaucratic monstrosity that wastes taxpayer money like there's no tomorrow and I just felt dirty working in and around that industry.

But to answer the original question, if push came to shove and I needed to feed my family, there are probably very few legal programming jobs I wouldn't accept. I'm lucky enough right now that I have the luxury to accept interesting jobs and turn down ones that aren't. But, being picky is a luxury I haven't always had and may not always have, so I'm not about to list jobs I wouldn't take, because someday, I might be in a different situation.

Jeff LaMarche on April 9, 2009 9:19 AM

If you don't consider the content that your software will be delivering then would you work for a spammer? For a captcha breaker?

They both need high performance software that runs on the clock to maximize profits.

I wouldn't mind working for some porn sites I guess, as long as I approve of the content.

Mike B on April 9, 2009 9:21 AM

Sorry to hear that, but what about blogs? Blogs are used by the adult part of the net, too.
Don't forget that the online age verification was invented because the adult part of the net needed it... and now not just this part... ebay? amazon?

Have talked on parties to people who work for the adult part, but they nice and charming like any other guy I talked to.

The only thing that wonders me is, if I want to have fun with my girl friend when I see porn 9h a day :)

WarrenFaith on April 9, 2009 9:25 AM

@jeff Atwood:

On the contrary. I believe code has the power to change the world. Is your code changing the world for the better or for the worse. That's the question.

That is so pompous. Why do you condescend the commenters? Clearly people find value in pornography, they certainly pay for it. It's not world peace or a cure for cancer, but neither is SO. Neither is fake plastic rock (read: used with derision). Nevertheless, people enjoy games, read essentially non-technical blogs, porn, and various and sundry other activities. The commenter knew what your silly insinuation was, you just chose to ignore his criticism.

Metaphor Monster on April 9, 2009 9:30 AM

What a bunch of losers would get upset with someone for working for the porn industry

Red on April 9, 2009 9:31 AM

Here's an experiment.

1) Ask 100 people what they would think of you if you told them you were a pornographer.

2) Ask those same 100 people if you can inspect the contents of their hard drives.

Peter on April 9, 2009 9:31 AM

Well, I didn't pursue a position at Intel because of what they did to Randal L. Schwartz. I was a sysadmin for a dot com in the beauty care field, though I had qualms about working for that industry (I think it hurts a lot more people than sex work of various sorts does).

There is the snicker factor of course. It wouldn't bother me.

Ronald Pottol on April 9, 2009 9:33 AM

I hired a guy that used to work in the adult industry, and he was one of the best employees I ever had.

What I really want to know, though, is who goes to work for the RIAA or the MPAA?


Brian on April 9, 2009 9:36 AM

Once built a online strip club for a group of gentlemen. All my friends wanted to come to my place of employment. I never got treated any different. Most people thought it was cool and had lots of questions. I have since moved on to more corporate endeavors, but I miss that environment!

DivineEquality on April 9, 2009 9:38 AM

Obviously this is a morality discussion and because of that it skirts in and out of the variable gray areas for most people.

Some people don't give two shits about adult content or working in the adult industry. Hell people perform the stuff so obviously no line is uncrossable.

It all comes down to personal preference I'd say. I work doing programming in the Internet marketing arena, which for some people is pretty objectionable stuff. I see it as no worse than just about any other aspect of marketing or sales, that is to say it's unpalatable in some respects, but a necessary function of our economy. I get to work on different platforms and solve different problems revolving around serving content and building internal tools to service our business. If you looked at my resume from this job it would look pretty impressive.

Overall I'd not want to work for someone if they were so high handed as to judge me based on some ill defined moral code of their own rather than on what I've done technically.

Harvey on April 9, 2009 9:40 AM

Your question about asking if the developer is still working at the site if he is now in his 30s is a good one -- the folks I have known who chose to do programming in the adult industry have all been very young (late teens, early 20s)

For me, it's not just an abstract moral issue, I would not work in the adult industry for the same reason I would not work for a gambling website -- they both make money from exploiting primal instincts and both foster addictions, and with the adult industry there is (whether you want to deny it or not) a whole lot of real exploitation of women going on. Porn and gambling are both bad for society and really do destroy lives, and as you grow older you meet people and experience this firsthand.

There may be a place for both porn and gambling in the world, and the effects would still be there without the technology, but I, at least, choose not to put my energy and time into them.

anonymous on April 9, 2009 9:41 AM

I used to associate IMVU with creepy ads too, but then I started reading a good startup blog by Eric Ries called Lessons Learned. I was surprised after reading a few posts that Ries is the co-founder and former CTO of IMVU. His blog posts on software startups often contain examples learned from IMVU. He's as much into passing on the knowledge as you or Joel. I don't know anything about his software products, but I recommend his software business blog.

Eric Soltys on April 9, 2009 9:42 AM

Well, I can't see why it would be perfectly OK to talk about one's job in DoD related industry, or finance, or pharma and yet having a technical position in the porn industry would make you a total pariah. By comparing the victim count of these different industries, porn seems to be the more humane, by far.

Yann Schwartz on April 9, 2009 9:45 AM

I had the chance to work at a tobacco manufacurer once and turned it down. I think I would rather work in porn than cigarettes.

Jeff on April 9, 2009 9:49 AM

Of course, there are probably plenty of people, a few of them programmers, who would KILL to work in the adult industry.

Dylan on April 9, 2009 9:49 AM

I personally would have a problem accepting a job in the adult industry. But (as other readers said) working in those industries should not be a license for others to shun you.

If you are judging someone based on their chosen field, not their technical chops, you ought to rethink what you are judging.

Matt Jones on April 9, 2009 9:49 AM

My dream job would be to work in the adult industry! My fiance wouldn't have a problem with it either.

Bill on April 9, 2009 9:51 AM

hmmmmmmm pron industry or sub-prime credit lender...
feels like predatory practices somewhere...

G on April 9, 2009 9:52 AM

Wow. Just wow. You said IMVU's awesome development and deployment wasn't cool because they made a chat game. Everyone pointed out how dumb you were being and now you're trying to slime them and call them porn?

That's really not cool. These are the same kind of cheesy ads that Carl's Jr. run to sell burgers, that Proctor and Gamble run to sell shampoo. If you want to write about the pornification of american culture and the awful, exploitative advertisements, do that. But when you try to salvage your wounded pride with intellectually dishonest sleaze, you only make yourself look bad.

anonymous on April 9, 2009 9:52 AM

You say least common denominator interests as if giving the customers what they want is a bad thing.


David Phillip Oster on April 9, 2009 9:54 AM

I once worked for a company that asked me during the interview if I had objections to working on adult sites. I replied that I would prefer not to. It turns out that an working on an adult site would have been preferable to some of the other crap projects we did.

There's nothing more demoralizing than working for three months under intense pressure to have the project dead in the water on delivery because of management's mismanagement.

Emily on April 9, 2009 10:00 AM

Oddly enough, I'd take a porn job, if it was a legitimate and responsible site (there are some, I'm told). I have turned down an opportunity to work for a cigarette manufacturer. Someone wants to commit suicide, fine, but I'm not going to help them do it.

A. L. Flanagan on April 9, 2009 10:03 AM

In 1998 I was fortunate enough to hear Dan Klein speak at the LISA conference about the challenges of being a sysadmin for a porn site. Beyond the legal issues, Dan talked about some very interesting technical problems regarding bandwidth, security, and payment processing. The most fascinating aspect was detecting and defending against FTP 'bounce' attacks to 'game' ad clickthroughs in their affiliate program. Remember, this was back when there were still legitimate anonymous FTP servers that allowed file upload.

At the time I didn't know Dan's history consulting (http://www.klein.com/dvk/consulting.html) or training via
USENIX, SANS, etc., but after his standing-room-only presentation before ~1000 sysadmins I was convinced this he had forgotten more systems administration than I'd probably ever know. Is Dan a perv? No idea - I don't dig into people's personal life if I can help it. I will say that he's a very funny, very smart, and very talented person and I'm proud to consider him a peer in the sysadmin community.

It's unfortunate and sad that the Puritans had such lasting and destructive influence on America. Would I list an 'adult' job on my resume? Sure, though not as such - I worked for the search engine/portal Excite.com for five years and we hosted over a terabyte (huge and expensive amount of EMC storage at the time) of our users uploaded (awful and often copyrighted) pr0n. So while not officially being a smut purveyor, we effectively were one, as was Yahoo! and
everyone else in that market space at the time. Nobody's hands are clean, pardon the pun, so it's not worth worrying about. If you list it on your resume and someone objects, you probably don't want to work for them anyway.

Bob on April 9, 2009 10:04 AM

I looked into starting some porn sites in the late 90s, right before the dot-com crash, because I read something about how the only businesses making money online were porn sites. I told my friends, logically, we should make porn. They really misinterpreted what I was saying and it freaked a lot of them out. Then all the phony businesses they were working for went under and they went on unemployment. Meanwhile, I, with my cynical strategies, was working for a bank, and was literally the only person I knew who still had a job.

Anyway, around 2005 I went back to the whole porn thing, but from another angle. My initial idea for a porn site had been based on reinterpreting erotic temple sculptures from India. Porn is very prosaic, this stuff was about sex and magic. Porn is like, sex and money. Not a great combination. But the demand for porn is huge and I figured it was so huge that a market for spiritual psychedelic porn existed. This was years before that XKCD comic about the same general principle. Rule 38 or 34 or whatever. So I had come up with this planned aesthetic and I was really attached to the art I had envisioned at that time.

So although I had abandoned the business idea I created some porn by remixing random Internet porn, adding video FX and doing extensive re-edits in Adobe After Effects. I think clicking my name should link directly to a blog post I made about this when I rediscovered the video files. Unfortunately I couldn't get it to compress so it's huge. It'll take forever to download. But I think it's worth it. Happy wanking, or whatever. (I don't know what you say in a situation like this.) It's called acid porn.

I got the idea because I was taking shrooms with my girlfriend and we were watching porn and it was just too fucking weird so we had to turn the porn off. Shrooms bring out the weirdness in anything, and porn has LOTS of weird inside it. Creepy weird, nasty weird, all kinds of bad weird. I wanted some porn that was suitable for shrooms in the company of a female. Most available porn does not fit that description.

I have a porn experiment I've been wanting to try, but I don't think I'll ever find the time. I don't even know if it's possible any more. There used to be a subset of the porn industry which basically just created link galleries for affiliate programs with still images. It was all about creating web sites, linking them to each other, and generating traffic. What seemed interesting about it to me was that a lot of it seemed to be something you could automate. I thought it would be really interesting to build a system which built porn sites for you automatically, and all you did was collect the cash it earned for you. I spent a lot of time researching this but forgot all about it after a while.

I never really considered working for anyone in the adult industry, except once, and I didn't go for it because A) I heard rumors the company was connected to the Mafia and B) talking to them on the phone, they seemed like weird, unhealthy people. Judgemental, maybe, but I've read enough about this to know that in that industry there are totally normal, chill people, and then there are also criminals and extremely abusive and/or self-destructive people. That's what made me skittish, and no doubt where the stigma comes from. The legitimate half of the stigma, at least. The other half is just sexual repression and doesn't matter.

Giles Bowkett on April 9, 2009 10:07 AM

The ultimate value of the work isn't in the porn. As Scott McCloud pointed out, there are 2 directions to take an art: to advance the subject, or to advance the medium. If you're writing software for erotic websites, and you brag about the latest technologies and the scaling issues, then you're doing it to advance the medium (software), not the subject (erotica).

There's nothing wrong with that. Not everybody has to do both: Charles Schultz is known for his art, but not because he could draw a more accurate human form.

What if you found out that Knuth (or somebody like him) learned everything he knew about algorithms from writing server software for penthouse.com? Would you think any less of his contributions to computer science?

Finally, remember that the vast majority of people never reach the point where they're making contributions to the subject or medium (5 and 6 on McCloud's scale) at all. At least this erotica software ships! The average result of a software project in the world is still aborted before launch; it's hard to argue that an aborted project has more value than one that people want. Or look at all the successful but useless enterprisey software; your erotica programmer knows how to build something people want to pay for, which is more than can be said for most of these programmers.

Ken on April 9, 2009 10:07 AM

What about betting industries?
I had the chance to work for that, and after the interview, where I saw how they do their business, I consider the MOST IMMORAL business!
They exist only to take your money, nothing else!
I refused politely, even though the salary was good and the technical side very interesting.

anon on April 9, 2009 10:08 AM

Oooh, I just remembered. I turned down a great rate working for NBC once because NBC belongs to General Electric and their news shows consistently under-report wars that General Electric is making money off of through its weapons division. I told the guy who was trying to hire me and he was like you coulda just said no. He was offended. Oh well.

Giles Bowkett on April 9, 2009 10:11 AM

It's a business like any other, grow up Jeff.

Pies on April 9, 2009 10:17 AM

How many people lie and say they work for a porn site to cover up the shame of working for Wall St?

mgb on April 9, 2009 10:20 AM

I'm surprised by the comment threads. There is some agreement that personal morality should play a place in choosing a job, but virtually no agreement that the actual issue here is a deal breaker.

This reminds me of the conversation in Chasing Amy about whether Luke had a moral obligation to warn the innocent contractors working on the Death Star. The most convincing argument was that the contractors should have made their own moral decision about creating a planet destroying weapon.

Just think of all those voices that cries out and were suddenly silence next time you sit down to write a line of code!

Knowist on April 9, 2009 10:22 AM

There are jobs I'd turn down over moral issues, but porn and DoD work aren't among them. I'd pass on spam... while porn is something that people want enough to pay for, spam is something that they are willing to spend time and/or money to get rid of, so I wouldn't be proud of myself for helping to dump more of it on them. It would be like working for an organization that dumped trash in random people's yards.

I did work for a couple of defense contractors over the years, and I'm proud of it. This country may not be perfect, but it's well worth defending, and I'm glad I played a small part in defending it.

As for porn... yeah, it plays on our primal instincts, but so do restaurants. And I figure that if you're not in a relationship, it's better for society if you watch porn than if you go out and get laid with some random stranger and help spread disease.

Gambling... you get what you came for. If you don't like losing money, don't gamble. If you're willing to pay for the thrill of maybe winning big, enjoy.

Ken on April 9, 2009 10:25 AM

What about programming work at a company that makes software that helps automate and manage the workflow of categorizing websites for transparent proxy filters? The most common filter category? Porn of course. I'd say weird is a good way to sum it up. The technical challenges were there, but it was still weird.

yDNA on April 9, 2009 10:27 AM

I agree with Peter and several others about the question of hypocrisy here. I understand saying 'no' to a job in the adult industry if you yourself never partake of adult entertainment. But I have a hard time believing any normal male proficient in the use of the internet never explores that half of the web.

So of those who wouldn't take the job but still enjoy the product, what are you saying about the people to produce the stuff? The implication is that they're classless, substandard, inferior people and you don't want to be associated with them. Yet you're their target audience. What's that say about you?

KDog on April 9, 2009 10:28 AM

Whats the problem with porn? It's just naked people having sex. Our job is not based on the content of a site but in it's guts, it's architecture and designed.

I'll work with a good porn site developer than with a bad kitties site developer any day. And also I think it would be so much fun! :)

Pablo on April 9, 2009 10:30 AM


I work in the Gambling industry. The people I work with are excellent in both technical ability and enjoyment to be around. They are excellent mentors to me. The work is challenging and do-able for my skill level (2-3 years out of Uni)

I consider my own work slightly immoral only on the grounds that it fucks people up. I consider this their own fault and not mine. They are responsible for dividing their own money up between essential and for fun, not me. The gambling industry never lies. It just works on two basis: We're betting your money not ours. (i.e. a game has a minimum bet) and we pay out relatively little for winning. So in Aces high if you get a 2 and say higher, get an ace and say lower, get a 2 and say higher....you still haven't turned £2 into £3 and even though the risk looks pretty low. 1/13 games you'd expect to lose everything you put in. Gambling to me is about beating the odds. People need to know the odds are never, by default in their favor. I'd also advocate playing games like Poker where the house takes a limited cut and there is an element of skill to it. You're no longer playing against the mathematicians but other like minded people. If you know you are the best, then you know you can walk away with cash. Unfortunately that's still a huge risk.

Finally, we're in a recession so I feel lucky to even have a job and on top of that I can verify the gambling industry is _definitely_ recession proof. Unfortunately because of this...I know some stupid people out there must be hurting.

Philluminati on April 9, 2009 10:32 AM

Typical prude americans.

You don't see the value of that work Jeff. The value of work is that customers are happy with the product. Thats more than many non adult sites offer. And worth more than just money. What is the value of a banking software, if it is used to bring whole industries to its knees?

GADTHRAWN on April 9, 2009 10:37 AM

@Darren Knopp : The star game designer Al Lowe wrote Larry.

GADTHRAWN on April 9, 2009 10:38 AM

I regard exploitation of others, whether it's sex workers being exploited (it happens) or most gambling (I may gain at your loss, but the house always wins so most always we all lose), or some other form (of which there are many) as undesirable ways to earn a living.

Steve on April 9, 2009 10:43 AM

I refused to interview with a company that makes instant pregnancy test-like urinalysis drug test wands. Every one of these inexpensive disposable wands tests for marijuana. This disturbed me because I've known people who've destroyed their lives and careers with alcohol, but none who've met ruin directly through marijuana.

It was a personal moral choice, but I also knew I couldn't live with myself if I knew how many harmless people I would throw out of work or into prison as a result of my efforts.

Honeypaw on April 9, 2009 10:44 AM

But you're respecting software engineering in the field of killing? Be it Doom or the F-22's flight and weapons control system?

Maybe I'm too low on standards, but when we show our kids without any hesitation how cool it is to kill other people, we shouldn't be too shy about showing our kids how to create new human beings. ;)

Vinzent Hoefler on April 9, 2009 10:48 AM

I have not problems working for the adult industries. I won't work for the military or military contractors though. (Note, I'm not a pacifist.)

Marcus on April 9, 2009 10:49 AM

When I worked at an ISP 10 years ago (admin/programmer, 14k customers in rural oregon) 95% of our traffic was usenet, and 99% of that was alt.binaries.erotica. I joked that we didn't provide internet service, we provided porn.

Eventually, I moved to content distribution. Our largest client was... you guessed it -- members of the adult entertainment industry. We of course didn't advertise as such, but they were our bread and butter.

Porn is money, and money helps drives innovation, which in turn helps drive tech. Though it was never an official title, I've always felt tangentially attached to porn -- proudly.

Mahlon on April 9, 2009 10:51 AM

Do I get a free membership? I keeed!! I keeed!!!

David S on April 9, 2009 10:55 AM

For all of you who wonder how anyone can justify the missile guidance system job, I think it's related to this:

a href=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mQWwvm5h1-o/RqGTtd3nKHI/AAAAAAAAABs/3MhC5GQzens/s1600-h/Pacifism+demotivator.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mQWwvm5h1-o/RqGTtd3nKHI/AAAAAAAAABs/3MhC5GQzens/s1600-h/Pacifism+demotivator.jpg/a">http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mQWwvm5h1-o/RqGTtd3nKHI/AAAAAAAAABs/3MhC5GQzens/s1600-h/Pacifism+demotivator.jpg/a">http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mQWwvm5h1-o/RqGTtd3nKHI/AAAAAAAAABs/3MhC5GQzens/s1600-h/Pacifism+demotivator.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mQWwvm5h1-o/RqGTtd3nKHI/AAAAAAAAABs/3MhC5GQzens/s1600-h/Pacifism+demotivator.jpg/a

ss on April 9, 2009 10:58 AM

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