Are there any programming jobs you wouldn't take? Not because the jobs didn't pay enough, had poor benefits, or limited upside -- but because the work itself made you uncomfortable? Consider the tale of one freshmeat.net writer:
Back in the old days (let's say 1996), I was just another Perl coder writing CGI scripts for a living. Well, pocket money's more like it, but okay. I wrote scripts for fun, I wrote them to make some cash, and I wrote them because I'm a geek and I love programming. Then, one day, I got a phone call from this company. A friend of mine had referred them to me, and they wanted me to write a CGI script. The gentleman I spoke with was very well mannered, very well educated -- the typical likeable manager.After some talking, he came to the point. The CGI script I was to create was supposed to take an archive of images and make them searchable by topic. In itself nothing amazing, but when I asked, out of curiosity, what kind of images we were talking about, I was surprised to find out it was porn. Yes, porn.
I accepted the job, and life changed dramatically. Instead of friends saying "cool" or some coders I knew saying "nice script", they shied away, refused to talk to me, refused to look at the script. For a long time, I wondered why. This year, I went to a convention. I was just out there looking for new cool stuff, not much else. Everyone I talked to was friendly, and downright nice, right up until the point when I told them what I did for a living. Then they suddenly remembered they had something better to do.
And why? Does working on the adult part of the net mean I'm a scumbag? Does it mean I'm sleazy? Does it mean I'm untrustworthy? Does it mean my code is bad?
That was eight years ago. I wonder how the now over-thirty author of the original article is getting on in his career. Does he still write code for the adult industry? Somehow, I doubt it.
This isn't just random noodling on my part. I've almost been in the same situation. About ten years ago, I had an interview for a programming position with a prominent North Carolina based purveyor of adult products. After the interview, I asked my girlfriend (now my wife) how she would feel if I took a job that was, more or less, in the adult industry. Although she's flexible on almost every topic, this is one area where she had serious reservations. I think the operative words were "what will we tell our parents?" It's a fair question. For that matter, what do you tell your friends when they ask where you work? Your peers? It was enough to keep me from taking the job.
Years later, I encountered one of my previous coworkers who had taken a programming job there. It turns out I made the right choice, but not for the reasons you might think. There were technical and managerial problems on the job that far outstripped any effects from the unusual choice of industry. That said, when I asked him what the environment was like, working daily with adult products, he had a one word response: weird.
The adult industry does present interesting technical and scaling challenges, perhaps more interesting than building yet another line of business CRUD application for Yet Another MegaCorp. A recent Reddit discussion thread which asked if you designed a porn site, would you put it on your resume? had some excellent examples.
[Adult] sites have oodles of top-quality attributes to them; payment processing, secured content, username and password maintenance (especially self-service maintenance) rapid updates and, if your site was successful, some interesting scaling problems to engineer around.I work for an [adult] site. It's going on my resume. Anybody I've told in a professional or semi-professional setting has been impressed and wanted to know the technical details about our server setup and bandwidth. I have yet to meet anybody, friend or prospective employer who was turned off by the thought of my serving up [adult content]. And I'm willing to say that I wouldn't work for someone who would judge me negatively because of it. I got into it because of the interesting scaling problems and potential for wisdom-of-crowds filtering and selection. And you know what, it's kinda fun.
I've worked in the [adult] industry for over 8 years. If I were to apply for a new job, you bet I would include it on my resume. I don't think I'd want to work for a company that couldn't see the benefit of having someone onboard that's worked with systems that must always work, have a known cost-per-minute of downtime, and are on a permanently continuous release cycle.
The general tone of the advice is that, if you choose to work in the adult industry, you have to tell white lies about your work -- small evasions about what your work is, and who it is for, depending on the audience. Invoke vague NDAs. Describe things in broad, general terms.
What if you saw this programming job listing:
(I am not making any of this up, I'm actually summarizing a real job listing.) Seems like a fantastic programming job, right? But what if I told you this job listing was for an adult website? Would you still consider it?
I bring this up because I recently read a great in the trenches story about continuous deployment.
Our tests suite takes nine minutes to run (distributed across 30-40 machines). Our code pushes take another six minutes. Since these two steps are pipelined that means at peak we're pushing a new revision of the code to the website every nine minutes. That's 6 deploys an hour. Even at that pace we're often batching multiple commits into a single test/push cycle. On average we deploy new code fifty times a day.
My enthusiasm for this supreme feat of software engineering was tempered by the fact that, when I clicked through to find out more about the company that was doing such sophisticated software engineering, I learned that it's a 3D chat avatar system. A very.. sexy.. 3D chat avatar system. Just look at their ads to see what I mean:
What is being sold here? I've even seen similar "sexy" IMVU ads with female 3D avatars in skimpy lingerie come up organically on my Fake Plastic Rock blog, of all places. I'm not the first person to make this connection, either.
A reader expressed their irritation with the IMVU ads that have been running in the sidebar recently. I was actually glad to see I wasn't the only one. They have a trashy, lowest-common-denominator feel to them. Kind of a "Welcome to Hoochie World" vibe. The ad has been running for over a month, and I've never seen a picture of a single male avatar. It's either the quasi-jailbait in a bikini, or a couple of skanks in a pseudosapphic embrace. Using a pretty girl to sell your stuff is perfectly reasonable, but doing it with such a lack of class gets on my nerves. I've never used the software, but the ads make me think their chat software is a world inhabited by l337-speaking teenage boys that would make the average FARK thread sound like the Mclaughlin Group by comparison.
The profile for IMVU user "hottiepie4life" makes it abundantly clear that IMVU, while not quite part of the adult industry per se, skirts awfully close to the edge of it. Enough to make me, personally, uncomfortable about working there, or talking to anyone who worked there. And it certainly colors and devalues my impression of the technical work going on there.
Maybe this is my problem. Does the subject matter dilute the excellent technical work the IMVU team might be doing? No. But at the same time, I can't help questioning the ultimate value of that work. I'm no prude. And I don't expect every programmer to be doing noble, selfless work for the good of humanity. All the same, it's difficult for me to respect software engineering in the service of such least common denominator interests.
Jeff, your comment system apparently buggers up links if it doesn't accept the message the first time (i.e. if one forgets to enter a name).
ss on April 9, 2009 11:01 AMMany people use and buy porn products, but if they hear that others do, they won't like it; they even do it without telling others (hidden)
I was almost offered a job as a programmer for a finance company. They are very large and do lots of things, but they are best known for collecting debt. I was told that if I passed the interview, I would probably get the job. I turned them down, because I don't want to be the one who makes it more cost effective to make poor people's situation worse.
I would also never work for law firms that specializes in detecting piracy. When I come home at work, I would rather not have to explain that I helped ruin a 14 year old kids life.
Anonymous on April 9, 2009 11:08 AMTaking or not taking the job may certainly depend upon whether you are currently employed! With this economy, adult-IT related job is probably better than no job...
Mike on April 9, 2009 11:09 AMOur company used to offer managed web hosting for years, we have given up on that business about 2 years ago. I still remember the first adult page we got. It was not porn, it was an escort agency, but there were no doubts that escorting won't necessarily end at the front door when customers get home ;-) The page was full of escort ladies in sexy clothes (some actually only wearing sexy underwear) - very high quality images, though. Everyone was so exited about it (and everyone asked our admins if they can give them a login to the private area, so they can browse through the images, no joking!). In the end, it was a customer like everyone else. Actually caused little support cases, paid their bills on time, had little feature requests - often we haven't heard of them in months, they just kept managing their database (adding/removing ladies from it), updating their web site content and that was pretty much it.
I would not mind working for the adult industry, as long as payment and working hours are okay, no problem. Actually I know an adult page that has some job descriptions online. They need a server admin, a PHP programmer and some more people. You can work from home, flexible work time, fair payment, you may even work from abroad. Only problem is, this page has legal issues - currently nobody targets them, but they do violate copyright, that is out of question and it will be only a matter of time till they get legal issues and then their whole business model will explode and you are pretty fast without a job.
Regarding what I'd tell my parents? I'd tell them I'm working for a page selling porn. Maybe I'd not use the word porn, but other than that, why should I lie? The adult industry is a big one and always will be. It wouldn't be that big if the demand was not as high as it is and the fact that the demand is so high tells us that people want it. Is it bad to help people getting what they want?
If you ask me if there are jobs I'd not take... there are. There are some companies I would never work for. E.g. Microsoft. Actually I couldn't tell my friends that I work for Microsoft, no kidding, they will start acting like you described in your post. Leaving aside the discussion if Microsoft makes good software or not, if Windows is a useful operating system or not, the politics of this company (the things they do in daily business) violate my ethics, thus I cannot work for them.
Mecki on April 9, 2009 11:11 AMWhat I really want to know, though, is who goes to work for the RIAA or the MPAA?
I have to agree. If I owned a company, they would have to have a very impressive resume if they wanted a job.
Anonymous on April 9, 2009 11:15 AMw.t.f.
because the work itself made you uncomfortable
I was expecting something.... bad.
- working for dictatorships
- Designing Government surveillance systems
- implementing large scale internet censoring to block freedom of information
- implementing large scale internet surveillance to block freedom of speech, and track dissidents.
All these things I've done.
A couple more that just crossed my mind:
- Programming robots that kill real people
- embedded development of mines missles (explosives)
- corporate espionage - writing\implementing trojans spyware.
- corporate espionage - illegal wiretapping/packet sniffing
There are many things a developer/hacker/network engineer can do that would make most people 'uncomfortable'... Porn, is NOT on that list.
ha.
Underwood on April 9, 2009 11:22 AM
It's a personal preference. The industry a person works for should not be a factor when judging his technical merits. I personally would not accept a day job with the adult industry, but I would like to participate in a short project, just to know how different the technical challenges and solutions are.
And for acquaintances who work in the adult industry, I definitely would not treat them less than any other acquaintance.
I think it's interesting that people might be ok with a use case of there's a 22 year old college student living in the dorms. How will this software get him laid? (a href=http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001195.htmlhttp://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001195.html/a),">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001195.html/a),">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001195.htmlhttp://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001195.html/a), but not be comfortable with working in the adult industry. They're not exactly identical cases, but it's still kind of interesting to compare.
Hmm on April 9, 2009 11:27 AMIts funny because I've developed a piece of VoIP software that will allow a user to send a call to one of their friends using a celebrity recorded script. Its similar to the Snakes on a Plane and the Alec Baldwin Calls your Friends promos.
What's funny is that the backer backed out in the project and refused to pay us after we built the thing (turns out he didn't have the cash...whoops). His partner, who works in the entertainment industry, did some shopping around and it turned out Vivid was EXTREMELY interested in the technology.
They turned Vivid down all because it was the adult entertainment industry, and as a result we have this great technology that we didn't get paid for.
I guess if it was me, I'd take pause and I'd be a little hesitant to name them as a client at first with new people. Not through my own personal objections (hell I thought it was awesome), but because its uncertain how the reaction, no matter how ridiculous, would be to others.
Still I think the hangups around porn are dumb, because of the Internet, instead of going to a seedy bookstore or theater, people (including couples) can watch porn in the safe, clean, and comfort of their own homes.
NDA on April 9, 2009 11:28 AMYou're no prude, Jeff?. After writing THIS article?.
Yeah, right.
Canadian on April 9, 2009 11:31 AMEh, another thing. I've been reading in some comments that people wouldn't hire someone who worked as a coder in the adult industry.
Since I'm assuming that the commenters are programmers as well, this is extremely short sighted simply because of the technical chops it takes to deliver a successful online adult service. Others have commented on the tech. details before so I won't go into them but I just want to say this:
Joel's rule of hiring programmers was Is Smart, Gets Things Done not Is Smart, Gets Things Done, and Hasn't done anything involving dirty dirty smut
NDA on April 9, 2009 11:35 AMOnce upon a time the ATT Definity switch was my bitch. I could dial four numbers at a time and use the ani's to cache a script. Whoever picked up first would get the sales call with no 2 seconds of silence to clue them in. I would've worked in the porn industry in a heart beat. Nothing is dirtier or more low down than a call center. My code was absolutely making the world a more evil place.
I remember going to conventions trying to convince people that not only could a computer answer the phone, but it was the best way to do it. Now everyone has an IVR system. Evil. Squared.
I went from evil outbound calls to evil inbound IVR calls and then into 900 number service bureaus. EVIL.
I understand where that guy is coming from. More than half the fun of coding is being able to brag about what you do. When you can't brag about what you do anymore, it's time to find something you can believe in. Something that makes the world a little better. Even if it's just helping people jerk off.
In my case it's social work. Well, it's building out SharePoint apps so the social workers can take care of the kiddos. No money at all, but I sleep well. My code may not be changing the world for the better, but it's sure helping my little corner of it. Feels good.
Coding for coding's sake is an empty phrase. Coding for the sake of truth, coding for the sake of the good and the beautiful that is the faith I am searching for.
And by that I mean coding to make porn available.
Hoffmann on April 9, 2009 11:36 AMI would love to work for the porn industry, there just is no test data that is more pleasant to look at. The best alternative would be a site about kittens. Please don't ask what if you can have BOTH?, though.
Dennis on April 9, 2009 11:37 AMJeff, you ARE a prude.
max on April 9, 2009 11:39 AMGood for you Jeff. I'm proud of someone would could stick to their idea of what is right and wrong in the face of this much name calling (see above). I would never work for a company where the employees have no belief that there work is only technical and can ignore whatever the company does on that excuse. Integrity is a virtue. I find Jeff that once again I'm reevaluating my opinion of you and I'm happy.
henervyille on April 9, 2009 11:52 AMJeff, I'm not accusing you of hypocrisy but I strongly suspect many people would be perfectly comfortable working for a weapons maker while they wouldn't be comfortable admitting to working in the adult industry.
How you would feel about working in an industry where making your code more reliable and more efficient could directly lead to more deaths?
Something is out of balance.
David on April 9, 2009 11:54 AMHow you would feel about working in an industry where making your code more reliable and more efficient could directly lead to more deaths?
Depends on who's getting killed. Those who want to try the virgins that badly are welcome to them as quickly as possible, preferably without dragging any infidels along
Of course the virgins would be getting the short end of the stick, here...
Ken on April 9, 2009 11:59 AMI'd put it on my job history and I'd be better off avoiding the people who avoided me because of it. Simply because the adult industry is at the fringe of moral acceptance doesn't make it inherently evil or unimportant, or even catering to the least common denominator.
Neil C. Obremski on April 9, 2009 12:01 PMyou sound like a prude.
ian on April 9, 2009 12:15 PMAgree 100% Jeff. Not only are they sleazy but they are constantly trying to get nasty exploits going against everyone who visits their sites. This is why I would be suspect of any software developer who would list this kind of experience on their resume.
It's a digital minefield out there be cautious...you don't want to blow your CPU off.
The problem comes when you derail with imvu.
The post goes from
working IT for adult sites-- it's a strange comprimise (sure, okay)
I found this interesting job listing (yup)
But for a company I find sleazy (sure, I can see that)
And I found someone else who agrees (okay)
Check out this IM profile (wait, you want us to damn the company because of one person's IM profile?)
All the same, it's difficult for me to respect software engineering in the service of such least common denominator interests.
What if you'd seen a listing for, say, a sysadmin at Vivid?
Would you have ended on the same note? Would you have still used that last line?
DMZ on April 9, 2009 12:18 PMGood post!
I'm a developer for a mobile web company which sells mainly adult material.
I have to say its the best job I ever had. All my friends and family know what I do and I'm not in the slightest bit ashamed by it.
I work with the latest technology and get to play with cool new stuff all the time.
Its very dynamic industry which suits me perfectly, plus its virtually recession-proof. All my old colleges are being laid off whilst I'm getting pay rises. Works for me.
JW on April 9, 2009 12:21 PMAre there any programming jobs you wouldn't take?
I believe this actually is more than that. This question implicitly includes
Are there any programming jobs your relatives/friends wouldn't want you to take?
After all, it's just numbers right? No, it isn't - those electrons mean something in the real world.
I generally avoid everything falling far over my competences by a large degree.
(I'm starting to think maybe I've grown my skills too much vertically.)
Some months ago, I was contacted to deploy a certification system related to our laws. I refused mainly as I considered the system doomed to fail due to some gross errors in design (most stakeholders involved would have lost decision capability and profit by using it, they sure would have fight against the system, although forced to use it by legal requirements). Uncertain financial status and lack of additional workforce were factors in my decision. Luckly there were no moral issues involved... at least nontrivial ones.
It depends on how much pragmatic you are. I have been formed thinking at programs to solve issues for people. For me, people is the cornerstone of development so I cannot just say it's just data.
MaxDZ8 on April 9, 2009 12:21 PM(# of coders that look at porn(ie everyone)) - (# that would admit to it) = (# that would scoff at such jobs)
All kidding aside, I think it depends on how you rationalize it. Would you have worked on the Manhattan Project? Even though cutting edge science/technology was in play and all the greatest minds of the time were working on it?
chris on April 9, 2009 12:27 PMI'm no prude. Bzzt, wrong. Yes, you are.
Rob on April 9, 2009 12:28 PMI think a particularly important next step in human evolution is around morality and ethics.
Porn is evil but greed is good... Hell, greed is a *virtue* that is accepted as a requisite part of being successful. You are being responsible if you go get a good job working for plundering crooks like AIG but you are the lowest of the low if you work in the adult industry. I'm doing my part if I work for a defense contractor but am I shady maybe even a socialist if I work for [insert do-gooder organization here]. Alcohol and tobacco have sexy ads everywhere but having a little weed makes you an evil criminal, again the lowest of the low.
We inherit these values culturally, somehow the wisdom of our ancestors prevails and our moral code remains static in a quickly changing world. Someday we'll realize that the seemingly innocuous things that have been quietly and skillfully woven into our day to day lives are highly immoral and will contribute to our demise if a head-change doesn't happen soon, en masse.
How about beeing ashamed to work for a financial/mortage/banking company in these days?
90% of the companies (1% having the motto do no evil) we as developers work for, have CIOs with golden parashute contracts who have no moral to speak off.
I take a pimp as my boss anytime, as long as the money's is good. (penun non olet).
Suck on it!
@Jamison: right on. And I will gladly be called prude. What is so bad about holding up morals, wanting a save place for my children, want them to learn to respect the other sex? Knowing some people that have been in this subculture, I know about the hardship it brings. Watching the pictures maybe does not do any direct harm, but never wanted to put it to action?
I know if I'ld be working for an adult side, I would be watching too. And I love myself too much to harm me that way.
Want great technology? Interesting work? Don't have to harm yourself for it, it's out there. And the alternative is not to work for the army.
As opposed to working for a bank that just lost a million grandmother's their entire life savings through fraudulent investments?
Sorry, Jeff, you are a prude. I didn't know those still existed on the internet. I still like you, though.
The only company I would not accept work for is the one my friend's consulting company farmed him out to - they send those automatic enrollment magazine subscription scam mailers you see all the time. Apparently the company is so bad that they can't get anyone skilled to work there full time, so they have to hire consultants.
But porn? Most porn is a consensual business. Especially this avatar site you're talking about - that's just a way for consenting adults to meet and talk to each other, like running a club. Get over it, dude.
Mike on April 9, 2009 12:35 PMMy do we have our luxury problems.
Id work *IN* porn and not think twice about it.
Geezo on April 9, 2009 12:38 PMYes. I won't ever take programming jobs for the government and/or any kind of law enforcement because the idea of working for either of those entities makes me extremely uncomfortable (not to mention that the temptation to sabotage them would be far too great)
Wayne on April 9, 2009 12:47 PMer... not sure about this post - personally I need a job as my contract is about to run out next week, on a plus I'm used to working with pricks.
Beggars can be coders.
Steve P on April 9, 2009 12:53 PMI worked as a flash developer at a porn site for 10 months.
The site had the worst porn in the world, and upper level management was a disaster.
Loved every minute of it. Why? It wasn't the bad porn, it was the job itself and my coworkers. They're all still close friends of mine. All incredibly brilliant developers who I learned alot from. I enjoyed the crazy release cycle. One week we would all show up at 1pm and leave at 6pm. The next, we would be there 14 hours a day.
And when I go into a job interview, I shift the focus to that, not the adult content at the startup I worked on. Although I did have one interview where the guy (23 year old sf startup kid) went OMG! porn! then somehow we wound up talking about 2 girls 1 cup. Strangely enough, I didn't get the job.
My ultimate point in all this, porn == a bad career choice. One of the oddest perks, I never had to worry if a friend sending me a link was NSFW.
SquirrelMaster on April 9, 2009 12:54 PMdoh. i meant it does NOT equal a bad career choice.
Should have caffeinated before attempting to post something remotely intelligent.
SquirrelMaster on April 9, 2009 12:56 PMWhat you're saying here Jeff smacks of the Christian vs. Atheist debate.
Who says that software development has to have meaning? It's software, the shifting of data around. Just because your stack overflow project helps other developers doesn't make it more valuable development than imvu or even the hardest core of porn.
Value is in the eye of the beholder; just as you have no use for imvu or porn, I'm sure they have no use for stack overflow!
Todd on April 9, 2009 1:06 PMI never have commented on an article on this website before, but I'd just like to mention that I thought this article was intriguing, relevant, and extremely well-written.
As a first-year undergraduate taking computer science I love this blog, and I don't read many.
Congratulations on the great website!
Jimmy on April 9, 2009 1:08 PMI'm an European, so I have the feeling that working for such a business would not be as frowned upon by relatives and friends here as on the other side of the ocean. It wouldn't really bother me as long as the actual products are classy and respectful of both the actors/actresses and the customers. A fair share of the adult industry is not, of course.
After all, right now I'm working for a large bank that made profits last year but still begged the government to give it a few billions euros because of the crisis. Sure, that money was given right away, and sure it came from the taxes I pay and my fellow-citizens pay.
Talk about morality.
The part that I find unacceptable and really immoral, much more than nudity and sex (which aren't), is accepting to be payed from an offshore bank account. Those who accept that should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
runam on April 9, 2009 1:09 PMI turned down a job for company that was trying to inject ads into web pages at the ISP level, I have moral problems with it. Porn? Bring it on.
Steve on April 9, 2009 1:12 PMI'm no prude.
Considering the tone and content of this post, I would strong challenge that assertion.
There are other areas that should make an engineer feel uncorfortable, shame or however you want to call it: let's say the engineer who designs stuff for the military industry... I hate that hipocresy... sex makes adults feel unconfortable but we love it.. but if you design stuff for military industry... you're cool... come on!!!
juanjo on April 9, 2009 1:35 PMI'm no prude.
I beg to differ. You almost define it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudery). 'adult entertainment', 'porn', 'escorts'; whatever you want to call it, as long as it's a legitimate business with interesting problems (and I might remind you that MANY businesses in reputable fields are FAR from legit), it's a good place to work.
I worked for an adult company (toy reseller) and it was a great place to work for/with.
Steve-O on April 9, 2009 1:37 PMPorn is like an addiction. Taking that kind of job is no less worse than selling narcotics. It's probably worse because it eventually leads to rape, child pronography, destroys marriages, disrespects women, etc., etc.
Isidore on April 9, 2009 1:42 PMI can't help but think that it seems very American to target adult entertainment that hurts nobody over military contracts.
If I've ever got a job in the porn industry, I'd expect my mates to arrive at my place with a six-pack, high fiving me and then asking me if I could arrange for them to meet any porn stars.
J. Stoever on April 9, 2009 1:42 PMJeff, if you were jobless, broke, poor, and going to lose your internet connection because you couldn't afford the bill, and you got offered a programming job in the adult entertainment industry, don't act like you wouldn't take it. Saying so redefines the word prude.
Oh, and I'd bet any amount of cash that you've watched some porn in the last week. Ha!
Josh Stodola on April 9, 2009 1:43 PMWho wants to bet that a few days from now there will be a It was all a troll and you all fell for it! article basically taking it all back ?
J. Stoever on April 9, 2009 1:46 PMCan someone who worked for a defense contractor talk about something for a second, without going into classified material? (heck if you do, that's alright by me) But I'm curious... since I've never worked for one I wouldn't know... but aren't many of you that have putting this subject at the level of the likes of Fenyman? I mean, he was a major part, if not THE major part, in the atom bomb... now, the U.S. hasn't tested them, (so they say) since 1992 - but we know they haven't actually been used since the 1940's on Japan.
What I'm saying is basically, what makes you feel uncomfortable about such a position? After all, you're not the one using it- but granted, your software could be used to kill hundreds, but it could also save thousands, right? So in that sense there's a tradeoff. I guess my point is, (again, without first hand knowledge) - isn't it the responsibility of those actually in power to use your software wisely? You helped your country- isn't that what matters? I would think it's the politicians that should be at blame, and therefore kicked out of power, for using your software maliciously... no? (then again, we all know how politicians can be, but I'd still like to get your opinion on this)
Patrick on April 10, 2009 2:01 AMOnly in the US you would have to lie about what you do for a living, that is, if your work in the adult industry. I cannot make sense of the fear of nudity and sex, mos def because the US were founded by missionaries from the christian church.
Cal Le Cat on April 10, 2009 2:17 AMGood points made regarding the missiles and insurance industries... and I think we can all agree that porn gets the worst nod is largely due to exposure. Type in the wrong search keyword and you've got it flying at you everywhere. I doubt the same would happen in regard to missile guidance systems and we don't get to see (or at least bored by) the effects of the crooks in the insurance industry.
@Jeff, I'm amazed you actually don't see this - but you are in fact, a prude. You've taken yet another turn for the worse, begging the questioning why I continue to come here... but after this thread, it's more evident the comments make for the best discussion, because clearly you've lost your logic and reasoning ability so much to not be able to see how prudish you actually are. I'm still confused over how you managed to perceive the general tone of that quote- it was quite clear to me, touching on real-world problems.. and yet you color it with your prudish attitude. I first started reading your blog in 2005, but by 2007-2008 I started to lose respect for you- way to shine again.
Patrick on April 10, 2009 2:47 AMI can't help questioning the ultimate value of that work - I can't help questioning the ultimate value of gazing into your navel. Why don't you hook up with Steve Pavlina, and the two of you can form a Church of Bloggers (which of the 8 levels are you on?)
Andrew on April 10, 2009 2:50 AMAll the same, it's difficult for me to respect software engineering in the service of such least common denominator interests.
What a disgracefully judgemental and biased comment. Who sets you to be the judge of what is a morally responsible and respectable job and of what are morally respectable sexual tastes? I certainly wouldn't pass judgement on your life in that way. I respect and even admire your blog 99% of the time Jeff, but this is a terribly narrow-minded view to put forth in the world. You usually demonstrate such an objective and balanced view of the world...
Matt J on April 10, 2009 2:57 AMBlah what are you doing that's so great?
The point is that it's a judgment call everyone has to make for themselves. What's the impact of your work on the world? Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
Why don't you hook up with Steve Pavlina, and the two of you can form a Church of Bloggers
That's just cold, man. Ice cold.
Jeff Atwood on April 10, 2009 3:05 AMThere's been lots of comments that point out there's questionable morals everywhere, not just in the adult industry. Everyone has to decide for themselves if working in/for a certain industry sits right with them.
At one point I did website hosting and server admin work. One of those servers belonged to a guy that had a site, two actually, revolving around spanking. Not really porn, but still adult. He was one of the nicest guys I ever worked with, and he enjoyed what he did. So did his customers, because he was raking in money by the truckload. For showing movies of him slapping his girlfriend's bum, which they both enjoyed. And yes, keeping the server running and extending the site involved interesting stuff.
In the end I think the most important parts of a job are that you are comfortable with what you're doing, and that the company you work for is a decent one. For me, whether or not they sell porn has nothing to do with that, unless they're one of those companies that try to install diallers etc. It has to be legal, and it has to be honest, having interesting challenges and cool people to work with are very big plusses. I don't really care if they sell games, porn, coffee or bicycles.
If my friends would want to be judgemental about that, I think that's mostly *their* problem, not mine.
Max on April 10, 2009 4:38 AMHere here Max
Matt J on April 10, 2009 5:13 AMCurrently I'm in a job that requires me to do work that is completely legal (according to our lawyers), but morally gray. I took the job because it paid well, and it allowed me to move my family to a better area. I knew the company had a shady reputation, but I figured it was just a job. Do the work, cash the check, go home, enjoy family.
Unfortunately, I've come to realize that the company's shady reputation may be tainting my resume and my chances for future work.
I spent most of last year working on a porn site and had no problems with it, it was well paid and challenging work, it's right there on my CV, I'm proud of what our small team produced. A month ago I interviewed for a public sector job in the UK, and it became clear I would be just adding to somebody's headcount in a taxpayer funded quango, with no real prospect of doing enough to justify my salary. To take that job would have been immoral.
(I had a naive view when I applied for the job that I could put in an heroic effort and deliver superb value for money to fellow taxpayers, but it wasn't going to happen)
Tony on April 10, 2009 6:08 AMThere are two potential ethical problems for me when it comes to working porn sites. And one practical problem.
First, and almost certain, is that many porn sites use very shady business practices with their customers. They bill when they should not with the knowledge that many customers will be too embarrassed to contest the rip-off billings. And many of them porn sites are a major source of malware. Both of these practices amount to theft from the consumer.
Second, many (not all) of the images and videos are of people who are drug addicted or otherwise being exploited and coerced.
The practical problem is that if the business owners/managers are willing to deal in an unethical manner with their customers and the subjects of the content, I think it's highly likely that they'll eventually deal unethically with me. Think of it this way, you're out at a restaurant with a prospective employer and they treat the waitron rudely...how long do you think you'll work for them before they start treating you the same way?
Jimbo on April 10, 2009 6:16 AMI think I would need to know certain details before I could say for certain, but in principle I wouldn't have any problem working for an adult site. The material doesn't offend me and other people's opinions don't bother me. The people I deal with daily are more important than the work itself or other's opinion of the industry.
The one job I had which I wouldn't take again was building software for personal injury attorneys. I made a lot of money, but I was always dealing with people who were at their happiest when someone got into a serious accident. One went so far as to locate their office at the intersection that had the most recorded car accidents state-wide. Whenever there was an accident he would run outside and give both parties his card. Not call the police or an ambulance, not see if someone needed medical attention, but hand each person a business card and tell them to call him to sue the other person.
I walked away from that job and a very high-paying salary because the people I was helping disgusted me on a daily basis. I now work at a much lower salary working with people I like. It was the right decision for me.
R.B. Davidson on April 10, 2009 6:37 AMAbsolutetly not, without a doubt, would I ever, for any reason, work for such a company.
Everybody does it - is it right?
It's no different than killing people - is it right?
I knew that times have changed how our culture views morals, ethics, and values, but these comments are quite an eye opener. Nobody really seems to give a rat's rotunda about such things.
If it meets MY needs (job, money, coding guru status) it's okay.
I have the utmost respect for those few that said no, I would not work for such a company. Thanks for having values and STANDING up for them!
Better to build on solid ground, then on shifting sand.
Marty on April 10, 2009 6:54 AMJeff - I'll step back from that prude comment, but only because people are taking it as an insult. Consider it more of a disagreement?
I mean, at the base level I do agree that it is important to not take a job that is against your morals.
I just disagree with your morals :) but hey, they're yours, stick to them.
Mike on April 10, 2009 7:02 AMAs far as weapons go...are you a pacifist? I can respect that, even though I disagree with that. If not, and you are a US citizen, you presumably want the US Armed Forces to have weapons, and I see no reason to prefer inferior weapons to superior ones. Therefore, I would have no qualms about working on weapon systems, since they are unfortunately a necessity.
I did have qualms about being partly involved in mass emailings, and I'm glad I got out of there pretty fast. Weapons help people in a way (even if I'd prefer they didn't), and spam doesn't. Same with tobacco and scams (highbrow or lowbrow).
I suppose the moral is to not work on what you find objectionable, and avoid working for unethical people wherever you find them.
David on April 10, 2009 8:07 AMMany of my classmates at RPI went to work for defense contractors. I went to work for General Foods saying, They don't drop Cool-Whip on kids. I worked there five years but when Phillip Morris bought GF I resolved not to work for a tobacco company and left as soon as I found a place to go. Porn bothers me a lot less than war or cancer.
Chris on April 10, 2009 8:10 AM@Marty: If you believe porn is wrong then you shouldn't take the job or visit any porn sites, which I'm sure you don't. But just because someone else doesn't share your vision of the world doesn't mean they have no values or don't care about morals. They just don't agree with you.
If you read the posts more carefully you'd realize people aren't saying they'd do 'bad things' to make money, they're saying they don't believe these things are bad. Very big difference.
I personally find anyone who adheres to a strict doctrine of 'right' and 'wrong,' without ever evaluating their position or studying the issues, to be some of the most ignorant among us. Haven't we learned from the past? How many of our cultural rules, which everyone once thought were 'right,' are now condemned as evil? 'Women are inferior to men, people of a different race deserve no rights, etc. etc.' If you're not evaluating your opinions regularly, you're on your way to becoming irrelevant and out-of-touch with the world - the old guy in the nursing home ranting about what a shame it is that all the kids are using 'computers' these days and it's destroying our society.
I guess when the talk comes to web security issues I'd prefer to contract someone who has worked in the adult industry. Those sites are constantly hammered from people who try to bypass authentication.
costas on April 10, 2009 8:52 AMMarty,
When you consider the fact that the people that read this blog are some of the most intelligent, well-read and cultured people on the internet, and THEY disagree with you in the large, surely you must consider the possibility that your narrow minded viewpoint may not be the only correct or moral way to live in our society.
Food for thought.
Matt J on April 10, 2009 8:59 AMI'd think twice. Personally I don't have against porn as such (I suppose a lot of those who said they wouldn't work in that industry have viewed porn sometime), but the porn industry tends to do things I consider immoral. Spam, to start with.
Lev on April 10, 2009 9:35 AMI haven't done any web development; I work on desktop apps. Maybe it is my unfamiliarity with the web development world that leads me to ask this, but:
What's so great about 6 deploys an hour?
How broken would your website have to be that you'd be fixing it 6 times an hour? Having the *capacity* to respond so quickly sounds great, but if you actually find yourself [deploying] new code fifty times a day, that doesn't strike me as a supreme feat of software engineering, it strikes me as Doing It Wrong. Like winning a contest to build the world's heaviest airplane.
Western Infidels on April 10, 2009 9:50 AMSure I would still take the job listing mentioned above! I must say all people who have a problem with this need to grow up and need to become more open-minded about sex or pornography. We don't live in the 18th century anymore!
sas on April 10, 2009 10:12 AMPeople working in the industry are not any sleazier than those outside of it from what I've experienced. I found that the adult workplaces were less uptight than regular jobs and it was a welcome change. In general I would say that most people are hypocrites and that is the real problem here. One job I would never take is working for a SPAMMER.
Mondain on April 10, 2009 10:16 AMHey, no offense, but I think you're being a prude.
Skip porn/adult/LCD-babes for a minute -- push that on the stack, we'll come back to it -- what about games? Same thing, right? Game programmers are doing miraculous technical feats in the name of selling to the least common denominator to maximize profits.
And we lionize them!
Why is sex different? Hint: because you've got hangups about sex. Oh, you THINK you don't -because you're a modern, new-age, liberal-thinking kind of a guy -- but something your parents/teachers/priests/whoever taught you when you were 6 yrs old has stuck with you, despite your best efforts to eradicate it from your system, and you're a prude.
I don't mean it as an insult; I'm one, too. I fight it, but it's tough. That stuff we were taught when we were 6 is tenacious!
So you just have to look at this stuff on its technical merits, and then toss in a cavalier hey, and it's fun, too, right? at the end. Ain't nothin' wrong with that!
It's ok with me if you want to stigmatize adult programmers -- but I think it's odd that one would hold them in different regard to those who wrote, say, HAWX or whatever the latest cool game is... One rule that applies to all is how we fight bigotry! :)
I believe code has the power to change the world. Is your code changing the world for the better or for the worse?
Great principle, Jeff. Certainly one that can/should be extended to as much of what we do as people as possible. Anyone who is offended by that statement likely has a shortage of introspection.
I routinely mention to recruiters that I have a negative interest in working on any military technology. The top of my resume (when I'm looking for work) states that I want a job that adds to the creative or social welfare of people to some degree. It needs to fit the moral framework I possess.
Perhaps some people find porn or weapons of (fill-in-the-blank) to be something that changes the world for the better. If they honestly believe that, then I think that they are doing the correct thing for them. It just doesn't fit into my ideals personally.
Demi on April 10, 2009 10:39 AMI am astonished by how prude American software developers are. In Europe, on average, people would be much more relaxed about that.
On the other hand, working for the weapons industry is OK -- this is what is really weird :(
katastrofa on April 10, 2009 10:47 AM@Jeff Atwood
Is your code changing the world for the better or for the worse?
Why would distributing legal porn make the world a worse place?
katastrofa on April 10, 2009 10:55 AMFirst, and almost certain, is that many porn sites use very shady business practices with their customers. They bill when they should not with the knowledge that many customers will be too embarrassed to contest the rip-off billings. And many of them porn sites are a major source of malware. Both of these practices amount to theft from the consumer.
I will stand up and admit that I have browsed a fair number of porn sites, and been billed by, ummm... several. With my full consent.
Not one has made the slightest effort to rip me off. Not one has billed me after my cancellation went through, or made it the least bit difficult to cancel. Not one has ever, to my knowledge, put any piece of malware on my computer.
I mean, think about that last bit... how in the world would it be good business to vandalize computers belonging to your customers or potential customers?
Ken on April 10, 2009 11:30 AMI think if you don't have a moral problem working for a (respectable) porn company (I don't, though I am a bit of a prude) there's still the very real problem of the people around you. I can imagine that if you live around an area where you don't feel you can tell people where you work you'd think twice about taking that job. In general, we do care what other people think about us and in some areas of the world working for a porn company can carry a real stigma.
Of course you have to draw the line somewhere, but you can draw it somewhere around financial companies and still have plenty of jobs you can get.
wds on April 10, 2009 11:47 AM@Ken
I think it is less that a high number of porn publishers are scammers, as a high number of scammers try to use porn.
It's some of the most easily obtainable bait on the internet.
Mike on April 10, 2009 11:48 AMSex. All your parents did it. Their parents, too. And so on. Now some people exercise to look better, get checked regularly to prevent being infected with STDs and do it with a few new tricks. Somebody films it, other people watch it, jerk off, feel good. I feel thankful for the gorgeous girls and guys presenting their hot bodies to the world. I think it's really nice of them, because it makes me feel good.
Honestly, what is even remotely immoral about that? Please tell me, I really don't know. And don't come up with shady business practices, they exist in all businesses and are not an essential part of porn.
Dennis on April 10, 2009 12:30 PMOh, and because there's a book that has not been revised in more than 2000 years, that says it's sorta bad doesn't count for me either.
Dennis on April 10, 2009 12:33 PMActually, a missile guidance system's sole purpose is to kill the correct people, (bad guys) and not kill the wrong people (good or innocent guys.)
Right, Jessica. Only, that the definition of bad guys may change the other day.
Vinzent Hoefler on April 10, 2009 1:00 PMI had refused to freelance in suspicious (I'd not say illegal but I have had such feelings) projects when my job would be to manage the development and register am lot of bank accounts under my name.
Kétszeri Csaba on April 10, 2009 1:01 PMI see denial, people.
Xepol on April 10, 2009 1:23 PMsometimes a video explains stuff best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhTxRssxfuIfeature=PlayListp=4E737540D920CEE8playnext=1playnext_from=PLindex=3
@Jamison, the problem is that the prude is 'easily offended' by things of a 'sexual nature', it doesn't concern the latter- but the former is quite obvious of one's lack of being open minded about the subject. Please read the definition of prude again, and no offense.
Patrick on April 10, 2009 1:53 PMHmmm 2 questions:
To the heteros: would you wirk for a gay porn Site?
@Jeff: was the porn topic on purpose or just am bad example to use in place of any subject people personally habe a Problem with?
Martin on April 10, 2009 1:59 PM@martin
To the heteros: would you wirk for a gay porn Site?
Yes. Some friends of me are gay. Their choice.
Are you trying to say: It's more immoral to work for a gay site?
Then: How prude is the USA?
and @jeff
Your thinking of making the world better...
Show me how you are doing it. Neither this log nor stackoverflow makes the world a better place. People still starving in afrika, today more people are killed in iraq then were killed under Saddam Hussein.
There is nothing you can be proud of. Sex doesn't kill people. It makes some people feel better, other get money. Do you think your blog does people make feel good? Do you think stackoverflow does pay the people who contibute code, and do the work for you? You are just building a business model where you don't contribute the work which is used by other people. You get at some point paid (advertising) for the work of other people who are solving other peoples issues. Isn't that more immoral?
gadthrawn on April 11, 2009 2:18 AM@martin
To the heteros: would you wirk for a gay porn Site?
Yes. Some friends of me are gay. Their choice.
Are you trying to say: It's more immoral to work for a gay site?
Then: How prude is the USA?
and @jeff
Your thinking of making the world better...
Show me how you are doing it. Neither this log nor stackoverflow makes the world a better place. People still starving in afrika, today more people are killed in iraq then were killed under Saddam Hussein.
There is nothing you can be proud of. Sex doesn't kill people. It makes some people feel better, other get money. Do you think your blog does people make feel good? Do you think stackoverflow does pay the people who contibute code, and do the work for you? You are just building a business model where you don't contribute the work which is used by other people. You get at some point paid (advertising) for the work of other people who are solving other peoples issues. Isn't that more immoral?
gadthrawn on April 11, 2009 2:19 AM@jamison Why do people keep using the word prude like it was something horrible?
Well, ask the author of the title. *He* used the term to distance himself of it, so he's the one who has problems with it.
@gadthrawn
I'm european and actually so work (remotely) in tue adult industry. I'm am SysSadmin so mysql Main concern in a few words are Service level agreements. I couldn't care less about the content after all it's just 1-nur people having sex. Mysql question about the Gay porn wasn't about wether one has Gay friends but I found that in peoples minds porn ist just hetero porn hence the question.
What so IN Fell my Patents? I ensure that people Fan masturbate so my girlfriend, soon to come son and me so have something to eat and the people wanking off at least don't have ideas like shooting each other or run around with a bomb belt - so much for making the World am better place :)
Martin on April 11, 2009 5:11 AMDid I mention that typing on an iPhone ist a Major pain?
Martin on April 11, 2009 5:13 AMDude..you look like an idiot way up there on that high horse.
anonymous on April 11, 2009 5:13 AMAnd I'm willing to say that I wouldn't work for someone who would judge me negatively because of it.
Same here. I prefer by far working with open minded people.
There is nothing illegal or wrong with porn. In fact, porn is making the world a better place for many people.
But you have a point when you say we should not take a job we're uncomfortable with. For example, I would say NO to a company that believes in software patents.
I believe you are right. Porn web sites has somehow ruined me and my life (don't ask how). As a programmer I will not accept such those nice and generous offers. By the way, porn sites are not the only ones that may have supreme feat of software engineering. Just look at the lots of cool websites that everybody uses and likes (i.e youtube, facebook, flickr and so on) created and maintained by brilliant minds.
PLC on April 11, 2009 10:21 AMyou are right in only one point: it is your problem.
Over the last posts you showed a quite closed mind.
Programmers should speak englih -what the fuck- they should better speak the language of their customers.
Programmer does not need to understnd math - only script kiddies don't need math
Porn is bad - Why are so much people enjoying it? You have never explained why porn has no value, but your personal opinion has.
DawnOfWar on April 11, 2009 12:01 PMby the way, why do you find the dolls in the image above sexy? In love with barbie?
DawnOfWar on April 11, 2009 12:03 PMBy what hypocrisy do we have porn being one of the biggest draws on the Internet, but no one is allowed to work on it? If anybody cringed at me for working an adult site, I'd ask, OK, so you've never glanced at a single pixel of the stuff in your entire life?
Far from contrasting the two, I consider sexuality to be emsynonymous/em with noble, selfless work for the good of humanity. By all means, break sexuality out of the 15th century campaign of shame and give people a reason to accept their sexual selves, and promote some AIDS-safety and condom awareness, maybe even cure a few psychologically damaging hang-ups while you're at it! I'm pro-sex enough to insist that sex should be considered no less a wholesome necessity than eating and breathing.
I state clearly on my resume that I'm willing to work with adult-oriented businesses, and I haven't seen backlash from it yet. In fact, the kind of person who would consider what I was doing to be wrong just might also be the kind of person I wouldn't like to work with anyway. Adult businesses are work to me like any other, no more nor less.
On the general subject of ethics, yes, there's jobs I won't work because of ethics. Anything involving spamming, scamming, misleading the public, or partnering with a company which has inethical practices. Other commenters have indicated this above me.
Half the reason I ditched cubicle jobs for the freelance wilderness is because I wanted to implement my own ethics instead of some corporation's.
You americans really need to stop being such prudes. Really.
Picacodigos on April 11, 2009 1:55 PMI've done work in the adult industry while I was studying but wouldn't again. Morality wise, I like looking at pictures of naked women, I really do, kudos to the creators of the Internet for making it so easy.
However the degrading nature of a lot of internet porn I find physically sickening. I don't believe consent is truly possible for a lot of it. For similar reasons I also wouldn't work in defence, low-doc personal finance or tobacco.
The second reason is that the industry really lacks class, the websites are tacky and horrible. I wouldn't work in used car sales, mobile phone accessories(ringtones, games etc.) sports, online auctions, religion or politics for the same reason.
Scott on April 12, 2009 6:06 AM#1: THE INTERNET RUN ON PRON,IF THERE WAS NO PRON THEN THERE WOULD BE NO INTERNET
#2: THE PRON INDUSTRY IS A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY IN THE USA.
#3: PRON SITES WHERE THERE LONG BEFORE codinghorror.
#4: AMERICANS WORKING AS PROGRAMMERS IN THE PRON INDUSTRY SHOULD BE PROUD OF THEM SELF.
#5:Naked chicks, they make me go click, click, click, clickclick, clickclickclickclickclickclick...
BAGASTER on April 12, 2009 6:25 AMThe comments to this entry are closed.
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