Remember The Problem of the Unfinished Game? And the almost 2,500 comments those two posts generated? I know, I like to pretend it didn't happen, either. Some objected to the way I asked the question, but it was a simple question asked in simple language. I think what they're really objecting to is how unintuitive the answer is.
Which reminds me of another question that you've probably heard of:
Suppose the contestants on a game show are given the choice of three doors: behind one door is a car; behind the others, goats. After a contestant picks a door, the host, who knows what's behind all the doors, opens one of the unchosen doors, which reveals a goat. He then asks the contestant, "Do you want to switch doors?"
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Should the contestant switch doors?
This is, of course, the Monty Hall problem. It's been covered to death, and quite well I might add, by dozens of writers who are far more talented than I.
What's interesting about this problem, to me at least, is not the solution, but the vehemence with which people react to the solution -- as described in The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives.
It appears to be a pretty silly question. Two doors are available -- open one and you win; open the other and you lose -- so it seems self-evident that whether you change your choice or not, your chances of winning are 50/50. What could be simpler? The thing is, Marilyn said in her column that it is better to switch.Despite the public's much-heralded lethargy when it comes to mathematical issues, Marilyn's readers reacted as if she'd advocated ceding California back to Mexico. Her denial of the obvious brought her an avalanche of mail, 10,000 letters by her estimate. If you ask the American people whether they agree that plants create the oxygen in the air, light travels faster than sound, or you cannot make radioactive milk by boiling it, you will get double-digit disagreement in each case (13 percent, 24 percent, and 35 percent, respectively). But on this issue, Americans were united: Ninety-two percent agreed Marilyn was wrong.
Perhaps the public can be forgiven their ignorance, but what of the experts? Surprisingly, the mathematicians fare little better.
Almost 1,000 Ph.D.s wrote in, many of them math professors, who seemed especially irate. "You blew it," wrote a mathematician from George Mason University. From Dickinson State University came this: "I am in shock that after being corrected by at least three mathematicians, you still do not see your mistake." From Georgetown: "How many irate mathematicians are needed to change your mind?" And someone from the U.S. Army Research Institute remarked, "If all those Ph.D.s are wrong the country would be in serious trouble." Responses continued in such great numbers and for such a long time that after devoting quite a bit of column space to the issue, Marilyn decided she whould no longer address it.The army PhD who wrote in may have been correct that if all those PhDs were wrong, it would be a sign of trouble. But Marilyn was correct. When told of this, Paul Erdos, one of the leading mathematicians of the 20th century, said, "That's impossible." Then, when presented with a formal mathematical proof of the correct answer, he still didn't believe it and grew angry. Only after a colleague arranged for a computer simulation in which Erdos watched hundreds of trials that came out 2-to-1 in favor of switching did Erdos concede that he was wrong.
You may recognize Paul Erdos from a particularly obscure XKCD cartoon last week. So if you feel like an idiot because you couldn't figure out the Monty Hall problem, take heart. The problem is so unintuitive one of the most notable mathematicians of the last century couldn't wrap his head around it. That's ... well, that's amazing.
How can something that seems so obvious be so wrong? Apparently our brains are not wired to do these sorts of probability problems very well. Personally, I found the text of Jeffrey Rosenthal's Monty Hall, Monty Fall, Monty Crawl (pdf) to be the most illuminating, because it asks us to consider some related possibilities, and how they might affect the outcome:
Monty Fall Problem: In this variant, once you have selected one of the three doors, the host slips on a banana peel and accidentally pushes open another door, which just happens not to contain the car. Now what are the probabilities that you will win, either by sticking with your original door, or switching doors?Monty Crawl Problem: Once you have selected one of the three doors, the host then reveals one non-selected door which does not contain the car. However, the host is very tired, and crawls from his position (near Door #1) to the door he is to open. In particular, if he has a choice of doors to open, then he opens the smallest number available door. (For example, if you selected Door #1 and the car was indeed behind Door #1, then the host would always open Door #2, never Door #3.) Now what are the probabilities that you will win the car if you stick versus if you switch?
Paul Erdos was brilliant, but even he realized his own limits when presented with the highly unintuitive Monty Hall problem. For his epitaph, he suggested, in his native Hungarian, "Végre nem butulok tovább". This translates into English as "I've finally stopped getting dumber."
If only the rest of us could be so lucky.
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Hah. Jeff just wants to boost his comments count.
I recommend doing 0.999999... == 1.0 next. That always generates lots of comments.
:-)
AndyL on June 22, 2009 2:10 AMRidiculous BS. Mathematicians can bite me. Once the goat door is revealed there is a 50/50 chance of getting the car, regardless of anything else. And the earth is round (mostly) and time is relative, etc. etc.
Kenneth on June 22, 2009 2:15 AMA good way to think about this problem for me was the following trick:
If you stick with your initial door, you basically selectd a single door, so your chance to win is 1 in 3, so 1/3. However, if you switched, you basically selected two doors and the moderator tells you the wrong door of these two doors. It is just confusing that the moderator first opens the door (thus telling you the information about the wrong door) and THEN you decide to take the other door (which in fact, is the sequence of selecting the TWO other doors and then trivially selecting the LAST door (because the other door has a goat, by moderator)), so overall, this is 2 in 3, 2/3.
tetha on June 22, 2009 2:27 AM@Kenneth:
I lol'd.
I wanted to toss two other statical quirk problem in humans.
You conduct two experiments of tossing a coin repeatedly. In the first experiment you toss the coin until you see HTT as a pattern. In the 2nd experiment you toss the coin until you see HTH as a pattern. You repeat both experiments a large number of times (to make the results accurate).
Will the two experiments have the same average # of tosses to see the pattern. If not which one occurs sooner and why?
A test for a disease is 99% accurate, 1/10,000 people have the disease. You are chosen randomly to be tested for the disease and you test positive. What's the probability that you have the disease?
See the problems and solutions here there's also a lot of other good ones.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/peter_donnelly_shows_how_stats_fool_juries.html
How many goats behind each door? What kind?
Steve on June 22, 2009 2:53 AMJeff, you missed the point of Paul Bucheit's critique of your boy/girl question.
Just because it's "a simple question asked in simple language" doesn't mean it's well-formed and unambiguous. In fact, if anything, "simplicity" probably makes ambiguity MORE likely. This is especially true when calculating probabilities, where your assumptions make all the difference.
Let's translate your question into less ambiguous terms. There are 2 possibilities:
1) Ted has 2 kids. You ask him to tell you the sex of one of them. (either one, his random choice). He says "Girl". Given this, what's the odds the other child is the opposite sex? Answer: 50%
2) Ted has 2 kids. You ask him if one or more of his kids is a girl. If so, what's the odds the other child is a boy? Answer: 66%
Do you see the difference:
In the first question, the "Girl" reported to you is a random draw (the question would be the same even if "Boy" had been reported) and is thus independent of the second child's sex.
In the second question, the "at least one Girl" result is screened for, so the two-Boys possibility is being filtered out.
Your question is ambiguous because it doesn't say how the first reported result (the one he tells you) is chosen.
You may think this is trivial, but it's not: What if you wanted to write a simulation to test your calculation? Which algorithm do you choose? Do you throw out the Boy-Boy results or not? If you don't have enough information to write a simulation, you don't have enough information to give a definitive probability.
The problem with the Unfinished Game is that it does NOT distinguish properly between what Jeff Atwood intended it to be (hence ending with a 2/3 probability) and the "nosy neighbor" scenario.
It comes to the same downfall as Monty Hall/Fall: intent is KEY because it shifts the probabilities.
In Monty Fall, the probabilities shift to 50/50 because Monty is not adding information (more information is coming in, but that information is as likely to drop us out of the scenario a (he accidentally opens the door we chose, or he accidentally opens the door with the car behind it) as it is to guide us. Thus, the problem domain has contracted but no new information has been imparted on the existing choices.
In the Unfinished Game scenario, we are supposed to realize that the information offered is NOT random, but as a result of a pointed question ("Is one of your children a girl") but not TOO pointed question ("Is your oldest child a girl"). If it were random, you end up with the "nosy neighbor" scenario, wherein the extra information contracts the problem set (you are as likely to have seen a boy walking across as a girl) instead of ellucidating the remaining domain.
Which brings me back to the first paragraph of Atwood's piece, where he scolds us for telling him his formulation of the Unfinished Game problem was incredibly poorly stated. Sorry, but it was. He does not say if this person pointedly told us he has a girl at random or with some surrounding information, and supposes that we must infer that there was some surrounding context to that information.
Personally, as a parent, I answered "~1". If you are a parent and tell someone that "one of my children is a girl" you are saying that the other one is not. Simple human nature. If I have two girls, I'm going to say I have two girls, not one. The only possibilities then are:
1. The other child is a boy
2. The other child is a hermaphrodite of some sort
3. The person is being deliberately coy about their children's genders
Since 2 and 3 are generally very small probabilities, that leaves just about a 100% chance that the other child is a boy.
Of course, Atwood's scenario posits that (3) is the dominant probability, which then overwhelms the odds of the situation, and further that there is not a REASON that they are being deliberately coy (for instance, some odd societal stature loss from having two girls).
Tom Dibble on June 22, 2009 3:31 AM@Lint I found that explanation a little confusing so after working it out myself I'm going to restate my reasoning through it to hopefully help anyone else out as well.
G-G, G-B, B-G, B-B are the possible combinations.
If I ask the sex of one of the child I'm not in 3 of 4 states as you might assume. I'm putting myself in one of 8 states. The way I've asked the question makes ordering relevant for the G-G and B-B situation. So now I have the following states...
G-G expands to..
G1-G2
G2-G1
G-B expands to
G1-B1
B1-G1
B-G expands to
B2-G2
G2-B2
B-B expands to
B1-B2
B2-B1
Using those states 4 of them (G1-G2, G2-G1, G1-B1, G2-B2) are descriptive of my current situation of knowing the first kid I'm told about is a girl. Of those 4 states 50% of them are Boys 50% are Girls.
Now when you ask "At least one Kid is a Girl" you are wording the question such that it is order independent. G1-G2 is the same as G2-G1. In this case you have the following possible states you can be in
G-G, G-B, B-G.
Of the three states 2/3rds of them has a Boy for the other child.
I think the key to understanding stuff like this is to identify if ordering matters, break down the possible states, then count the probabilities.
For the record, a better statement of the "Unfinished game" problem would be:
In a random gathering of people, we asked everyone with two children to stand up and everyone else to sit down. We then asked those standing to only remain standing if one or more of their children was a girl. One woman was standing at this point. What are the odds that she had a girl and a boy?
The problem, though, is that making the problem clearer starts sending warning signals to the quizee. Not sure how to best pose this scenario in a "natural" manner without either causing critical ambiguity or tipping the quizee off that something unintuitive is afoot.
Tom Dibble on June 22, 2009 3:36 AMHmm... trying to explain the Monty Hall problem may be almost as bad as trying to convince your drunk friend not to bet $100 on the Superbowl coin flip.
"Well the last three Superbowls were heads, so this year it's definitely going to be tails!"
I won't name names.
Leah Culver on June 22, 2009 3:45 AMPlease, if you want to explain the answer, create your own blog that nobody reads, because that's about how interesting this problem is. The topic has been beaten to death. RIP
Orificer on June 22, 2009 3:52 AMOh dear I'm going to get dragged into this again. Here goes:
@Tom Dibble
>It comes to the same downfall as Monty Hall/Fall: intent is KEY because it shifts the probabilities.
I don't agree with this statement. I don't think the intent matters, just the actual outcome:
Monty Fall is the same as Monty Hall once the chance of accidentally revealing the car is gone.
However, intent is a good indicator of predicting what you should do before the event has passed.
Tobermory on June 22, 2009 4:12 AMIt looks like the only way to finish the game is to close the threads.
Practicality on June 22, 2009 4:16 AM@eshepherd OMG! THANK YOU! You've struck what, for me, is the best possible, most intuitive explanation of why the probabilities work out the way they do.
So people don't have to search, eshepherd said: "You're not dropping one, you're getting both doors that you didn't pick."
Perfect! If you switch it's probabilistically the same as getting to open two doors! 2/3! All the extra info about the host knowing and choosing is just there to make sure no situations arise where he accidentally opens the door containing the prize.
CynicalTyler on June 22, 2009 4:26 AMA better interview question would be:
"Given that the answer to the Monty Hall problem is to switch your answer, can you explain why that's true?"
I build robots. Check out my blog at:
http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/blog.php?u=3182
@Logo - I wasn't trying to detail the alternate solutions so much as make the point that the question phrasing critically matters in what result you arrive at. (Which Jeff seems to have dismissed as sour grapes)
Probably clearer than my case 1 question would be to phrase it like the "Nosy neighbor" scenario that Tom Dibble refers to, or "Nebulous Neighbors" in the pdf Jeff links. Tom didn't actually elaborate on it, so I'll paraphrase from the pdf:
Nebulous Neighbours: Your new neighbours have two children of unknown gender. One day you catch a glimpse of a child through their window, and you see that it is a girl. What is the probability that their other child is also a girl?"
To me, this makes it totally unambiguous what is being asked.
Ah, people still arguing about this.
It really is a fantastic problem though, if for no other reason than the fact that it shows how violently even the most thoroughly educated people can react when something runs counter to their intuition.
Anyways, for anyone's made it alllll the way down here while still in the 50/50 camp, I'm going to take my own (hopefully non-redundant) crack at explaining it.
The question isn't about the probability of a car (prize) being behind a door, it's about the probability of the door you PICKED having a car behind it.
At the outset:
There are twice as many ways to pick a losing door in the first phase as there are to pick a winning door.
So you have a 2/3 chance of picking a loser, and a 1/3 chance of picking a winner.
Now we take one of the losing doors away... what's the probability of the car being behind the door you picked? The same as before! 1/3.
Why? Because there are two different ways (2/3) to pick a loser at the outset. This means the probability of having a loser after a door is taken away is 2/3 (there's two losers to chose from), which means the probability of having the winner is still only 1/3.
Another way to look at it is: How can taking one door away after you make your first choice change whether or not the door you picked is a winner?
DM on June 22, 2009 5:14 AMThe intuitive paradox on this problem comes from looking at the end game without considering the prior state. If you were to walk into a half completed Monty Hall game without prior knowledge of the original guess, the odds would truly be 50/50.
In reality, the prior state plays a huge part of the final odds.
Consider doors x, y and z. We'll define x as always being the winner without specifying the mapping between x, y, z and 1, 2, 3. Therefore when you pick a number, you don't know what letter you picked.
If you picked x, Monty will pick y or z and your best move is to stay.
If you picked y, Monty will pick z and your best move is to change.
If you picked z, Monty will pick y and your best move is to change.
You do not know what letter your initial selection was but two possibilities favor changing while only one favors staying. You're best bet is to act on the more likely probability that you initially chose y or z and not x.
CK on June 22, 2009 5:28 AMGood lord - I can't believe you losers are still debating this. There is SO much literature and precedent on this question you are not going to solve it here.
The people who say 50% are wrong. The people who say 66% are right.
Google it and read.
Try to understand.
Even if you don't understand, the answer is still the same.
b on June 22, 2009 5:59 AMAsk yourself, the car doesn't magically move once that non-winning door is opened, now does it? When all the doors were closed, and you picked one, you had a 1-in-3 chance of getting the car. That means there's a 2-in-3 chance the car is SOMEWHERE ELSE. So when the host opens one door, revealing a goat, that means that 2-in-3 probability has focused on the Other Door that you didn't choose.
If you play with a million doors, the odds the car is behind the last unopened door are not 1/2, they are 999,999-in-1,000,000! The car itself does not shift around, only the probabilities do.
just jeff on June 22, 2009 6:07 AMJeff, in the other article, the problem you stated was nothing like the Monty Hall problem. In this one, it's 66% because Monty Hall cannot open a door that has the car. In the other, it's 50% because we only need to know what the other child is.
The way I think of it is the only way I can lose by switching is if I picked correctly the first time which was 1 in 3 odds. If I picked either incorrect box switching means I win since the host must reveal an empty box.
Pete on June 22, 2009 6:18 AMThe combinations of boy and girl are a red herring. They're statistically meaningless unless you can get everyone on the planet to agree to having two children.
The sex of a child is always independent of the sex of other children.
BA on June 22, 2009 6:18 AMBA, Yes of course the sex of one child is independent of the other children. We know that. Everybody knows that.
Doesn't answer the question though. You've fallen for the red herring and completely skipped the question. Sucker.
Andy on June 22, 2009 6:33 AMWWJD = What Would Jesus Do.
Actually, it's a good messiah interview question. That and get the solutions to np-hard problems. Oh and while you're at it, ask if the moon landing was a hoax or not.
Man I love omniscience.
This blows my mind.
Jacob on June 22, 2009 6:52 AMSo what's the deal with the real Monty game anyways?
1. Does Monty always reduce the number of doors from 3 to 2?
2. Does Monty never open the door to the car in 1. ?
3. Does Monty have a tell, and did the outcome of the real Monty Hall games agree with statistical simulations?
"Good lord - I can't believe you losers are still debating this. "
Amen. What is it about Jeff's "it's been covered to death" don't you people get. If you want to debate it, go somewhere else. Better yet, just google it and read up on it and save yourself the headache. There is nothing to debate about this problem.
Matt on June 22, 2009 7:02 AMOk then, what's the question? I thought it was "What are the chances that the other child is CHOSEN_SEX?".
By concluding that all combinations of of boy and girl are equally likely you are making a statistical fallacy in assuming that a randomly selected subset has the same properties as the superset.
To illustrate, pretend we have a planet where people can choose to have either one child or two children (for whatever reason, the point is to reduce the sample space). And lets say that 2/3 the population chooses to have one child. Now, by some random chance, all of the people who chose to have one child all had boys. Statistically, that just ruins everything. Because in this scenario, if you have two children, it is more likely that you have two girls.
Why? Because half of all births are already boys. Assuming an even distribution of boys and girl births, we can expect two child couples to have only girls.
To use the general case that it is 50% likely for a given sex during birth as true for all subsets is wrong. Especially since we aren't scooping up a random subset, but a subset that also exhibits an additional specific quality.
So, in conclusion, we honestly cannot know with any degree of certainty the sex of a given child based on the sex of another child, no matter how you finagle the language. There are simply too many other variables.
It's also the problem with the "proofs" provided. They all just assume two child families and run data using two child sets without thinking about the likelihood of having a two child set in the first place.
Data from people I know:
My parents: GBGB
My older sister: G
Her husband's parents: BGB
My wife's parents: BGG
My younger sister: GGB
My aunt and uncle: GGB
My boss: B
My coworker: B
My step-father: GB
His daughter: GG
My sister's neighbor: BB
13 girls, 12 boys, 3 two child families out of 11. Not a terribly large sample size, true, but it is representative of the inherent instability of what the question is asking. The people who are claiming 66% are claiming to know more information than than actually have available. The event is so definitely random that the best thing to do is to flip a coin and call it 50%. Anything else is being dishonest on some level.
BA on June 22, 2009 7:14 AM"The event is so definitely random that the best thing to do is to flip a coin and call it 50%. "
And that's exactly what many of us proposed that you do to prove the final conclusion to yourself. And yet, you obviously haven't done that!
I really don't know why people keep arguing around in circles on these things instead of just doing a quick simulation with cards or a coin and figuring out the REAL answer. It's so much easier and you don't have to even think about it.
Matt on June 22, 2009 7:26 AMSounds like a fairly standard application of Bayes' Theorem.
I could be wrong, but I get the same answer as everyone that resorted to counting or simulations.
Just like a bunch of programmers to go back to basic counting and complicated simulations rather than use an existing, well tested algorithm.
Allen on June 22, 2009 7:40 AMThe linked article is ridiculous. A made up "Proportionality Principle" claiming to be a restatement of Bayes' Theorem, when the Wiki entry on Bayes' theorem actually uses Monty Hall as an example and gets the right answer.
Probability is a measure of information. People getting hung up on the "probability that an event occurred" without realizing that it doesn't matter. We *know* the event occurred.
People can make their own red/black cards as stated in the pdff. They can sit there and count how many times they flip the red card over and see red on the back. It will happen 1/2 the time (unlike the Monty Hall problem). You can play with a Monty Hall simulator online. Try it 100 times without switching, you'll win about 33 times. Try it 100 times switching every time, you'll win about 66 times. Sheesh.
Citizen Z on June 22, 2009 7:44 AM@BA:
The problem explicitly states that they have two children. So trying to take into account the number of children other families have is a wrong assumption. Plus, even if it was correct, two children out of a 7 billion people isn't going to make, statistically, much of a difference. Anyway.
I will note, however, that there is an assumption that the chance of a child being a boy or a girl is 50% each way.
The four possible combinations of children would be BB, BG, GB, and GG. We know there is at least one girl, so BB is impossible. Therefore, the only choices that are left are BG, GB, and GG. Which would say the choices for the other child are B, B, and G. There is a 1/3 chance of the other child being a girl.
It's not a classic case of "P(A) Given B," because A is a subproblem of B, not the other way around. The problem you're used to is "I've already had a child who is a girl, so what's the odds of my next child, which I haven't given birth to, being a girl?" This problem is "I've already had *two* children. One of those children is a girl; what's the probability the other one is as well?"
And I'd think, if you looked at a large group of people with two children, and you selected families with at least one girl, you'd see the same thing: 1/3 have two female children, 2/3 have a girl and a boy.
Birch on June 22, 2009 7:50 AMThen let's define some parameters and get some basic data.
What are the likelihoods for the following:
1 child families
2 child families
3 child families
4 child families
5 child families
6 +child families
Basically the algorithm will first determine the family size based upon the previous likelihoods. Then generate enough children to populate the family. Then we discard the family if it does not have two children.
Then we can get the statistics for all the different combinations and run it through the proper formula to find the ending result.
Repeat this for some sufficiently large number and aggregate the results to find the most likely answer within a standard deviation.
(Of course, the algorithm should randomly start new families and generate children and randomly deposit them into all active families instead of filling them in as they come, but it's a cut I can live with.)
Another way to go about it is to generate a sufficiently large number of children and divide them among the different sized families according to the size probabilities. And then just use the two child families.
That's my biggest problem with all of the mathematical and programmatic proofs provided. They all seem to be ignoring the fact that not all families have two children and the distribution among the different combinations may not be even.
In other words, why is it safe to ignore all the other children in the world when considering this problem?
BA on June 22, 2009 7:52 AM@Birch
But to treat the problem as simple combinations is to exclude a bunch of relevant data as I tried to show in my hypothetical world. Yes, in isolation the probabilities of each set is 25% and we can exclude one set because of what we know currently and each remaining set has equal probability which would then bring them all to 33% of which two of our choices are positives which would then give us a 67% chance positive.
Let me state that I understand that. Perfectly. In a world of two child families, this would be true 100% of the time.
But the problem does not stand in isolation from the world. Not statistically. Because the statistics of them being a two-child family is a consideration itself. Plus the ratio of girls to boys in non-2 child families would affect the ratio of girls to boys in 2 child families given that the ratio of all girls to all boys is 1:1.
I'm questioning the assumption of treating 2 child families as if they represented the whole.
BA on June 22, 2009 8:02 AMWill people who use the Monty Hall problem in interviews remember to explain Mr Hall's motivation (is he trying to make you win/lose).
Otherwise the question is unanswerable - it might have been useful 200years ago when the show was on TV, but now when people read it 10th hand out of a interview techniques book it doesn't make sense.
mgb on June 22, 2009 8:04 AMQuite interesting question, and debates thereafter.
That reminds me of Nicholas Nassim Taleb, who wrote two books "Fooled by Randomness" and "The Black Swan", and one of the themes in both the books is that human mind isnt really attuned to understand randomness(though this summary is perhaps an over-simplification).
@just jeff
"Ask yourself, the car doesn't magically move once that non-winning door is opened, now does it? When all the doors were closed, and you picked one, you had a 1-in-3 chance of getting the car. That means there's a 2-in-3 chance the car is SOMEWHERE ELSE. So when the host opens one door, revealing a goat, that means that 2-in-3 probability has focused on the Other Door that you didn't choose."
In other words, there is higher chance of choosing the wrong door than right one the first time it is choosen.
Actually, IMO there's actually a way to solve and resolve this Monty Hall Problem once and for all: Good old Empiricism.
Find lots of people or record high number of observations(high number need due to Law of Large Number in statistics) where the game of guessing which one of the three doors the object is behind. If it happens statistically that more people have gotten it wrong than right the first time they choose the door, then this proves that at least changing the door is a good choice.
Quite interesting question, and debates thereafter.
That reminds me of Nicholas Nassim Taleb, who wrote two books "Fooled by Randomness" and "The Black Swan", and one of the themes in both the books is that human mind isnt really attuned to understand randomness(though this summary is perhaps an over-simplification).
@just jeff
"Ask yourself, the car doesn't magically move once that non-winning door is opened, now does it? When all the doors were closed, and you picked one, you had a 1-in-3 chance of getting the car. That means there's a 2-in-3 chance the car is SOMEWHERE ELSE. So when the host opens one door, revealing a goat, that means that 2-in-3 probability has focused on the Other Door that you didn't choose."
In other words, there is higher chance of choosing the wrong door than right one the first time it is choosen.
Actually, IMO there's actually a way to solve and resolve this Monty Hall Problem once and for all: Good old Empiricism.
Find lots of people or record high number of observations(high number need due to Law of Large Number in statistics) where the game of guessing which one of the three doors the object is behind. If it happens statistically that more people have gotten it wrong than right the first time they choose the door, then this proves that at least changing the door is a good choice.
The first time I came across this problem was in "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time," and I thought it was explained very well there. I like the explanations above also to think of a million doors and narrowing down from there.
Scott Carpenter on June 22, 2009 8:13 AMOf course plants don't create the oxygen in the air. They just debond it from carbon. What do you think plants are, fusion reactors?
chaos on June 22, 2009 8:18 AMQuite interesting question, and debates thereafter.
That reminds me of Nicholas Nassim Taleb, who wrote two books "Fooled by Randomness" and "The Black Swan", and one of the themes in both the books is that human mind isnt really attuned to understand randomness(though this summary is perhaps an over-simplification).
@just jeff
"Ask yourself, the car doesn't magically move once that non-winning door is opened, now does it? When all the doors were closed, and you picked one, you had a 1-in-3 chance of getting the car. That means there's a 2-in-3 chance the car is SOMEWHERE ELSE. So when the host opens one door, revealing a goat, that means that 2-in-3 probability has focused on the Other Door that you didn't choose."
In other words, there is higher chance of choosing the wrong door than right one the first time it is choosen.
Actually, IMO there's actually a way to solve and resolve this Monty Hall Problem once and for all: Good old Empiricism.
Find lots of people or record high number of observations(high number need due to Law of Large Number in statistics) where the game of guessing which one of the three doors the object is behind. If it happens statistically that more people have gotten it wrong than right the first time they choose the door, then this proves that at least changing the door is a good choice.
Guys: Don't call people stupid or idiots. This is a difficult problem and has fooled many statisticians and mathematicians. You especially don't call someone an idiot when they're right and you're wrong.
First of all, draw out a table of probabilities. After all, there are only 18 rows in the table (3 doors you choose x 3 doors where the car is located x 2 doors Monty can choose).
Let's consider the Original Monty Hall problem:
There are 6:18 rows in the probability table where you picked the car. That means, there are 12:18 rows where you didn't pick the car. Monty picks the car ZERO times in those remaining 9 rows. Since there is only one remaining door, picking it will give you the car 12:18 times.
Let's look at the Monty Fall problem:
Same initial condition: There are 6:18 rows in the probability table where you picked the car. That leaves 12:18 rows where you didn't pick the car. Now, Monty picks the car in six of those remaining rows (That is, there are two remaining doors, and he has a 1:2 chance of picking the door with the car).
Since the game states it isn't considering those 6:18 possibilities, we'll toss them out of our probability table. Now, there is a 6:12 rows that you initially picked the car, and a 6:12 rows that you didn't picked the car. In this case, switching doors does not improve your chances of getting the car.
BTW, it is still a 6:18 initial chance of picking the car, we simply tossed the six rows where you picked a door, Monty picks a door, and the car is behind it. Obviously, switching in those six instances doesn't help you in that situation unless Monty lets you pick the same door he just did.
===
Let's look at the Monty Crawl problem. Initially, it seemed to me that it still should be the same 12:18 times that switching will get you the car. What concerned me is that I could think of a few situations (where Monty picked Door #3) where you'll always win the car by switching.
Drawing out the probability table reveals that switching will get you the car 12:18 possibilities. However, if Monty picks Door #3 (which he'll do 4:18 times), you will 100% of the time by switching. If Monty picks Door #2 (which he'll do 6:18 times), you'll will 2:3 times by switching. But, if Monty picks Door #1 (which he does 8:18 times), switching doesn't give you an advantage. You lose 4 of those times and win 4 of those times.
====
Let's take the two kids where at least one is a boy. Let's give the kids names: One is Chris and one is Sandy.
There are three possibilities:
1). Chris is a girl and Sandy is a boy.
2). Chris is a boy, and Sandy is a girl.
3). Both Chris and Sandy are boys.
Yes, the odds are one out of three that they're both boys. Isn't possibility #1 and possibility #2 the same? If you were either Chris or Sandy, and one of you is a girl and one of you is a boy, would it make a difference to you which is which when you got dressed in the morning?
Still not convinced. Let's play a game where we flip two coins. I pay you if they both land on heads. Otherwise, you pay me. Now, what are the odds that both coins will land on heads. If you think it's still 2:1, I'd like to introduce you to a few investment opportunities.
No: The possibility of each coin landing on heads is 1:2, but when there are two coins, the possibility is 1:4.
1). Heads Heads
2). Tails Heads
3). Heads Tails
4). Tails Tails
If it is any help. Imagine the first coin is a dime, and the second coin is a nickel.
Let's change the game. I still pay out if both coins land on heads. You pay otherwise, but we'll consider it a do over if both coins land on tails. That makes three rows in our probability table:
1). Heads Heads
2). Tails Heads
3). Heads Tails
What is the probability that both coins land on heads? It's one out of three! Now, let Heads = Boy and Tails= Girl. You can see it's the same as before.
====
One more quiz:
There's a game called Chuck-a-Luck (aka Crown and Anchor) that's played on midways. The rules are simple. There are three dice kept in an hour glass cage. The cage is turned over and the three dice are rolled.
You bet on a number 1 to 6, and if that number comes up, you get paid even odds. That is, if you bet a dollar, you win a dollar. (You get two dollars back: The dollar you won, and your initial dollar you bet). That sounds very fair. The possibility of a number coming up on a die is 1:6 times. Since there are three numbers, the possibility must be 3 x 1/6 or 1/2 time. Even odds. Right?
However, the dealer gives a bit of a bonus: If two of the dice land on your number, you get double your money. If all three dice land on your number, you get triple your money! How can you lose?
But, lose you will. What is the actual odds of winning in this game?
David W. on June 22, 2009 8:22 AMBA you are a troll, or an idiot, or both.
Have a nice day :-)
MrT on June 22, 2009 8:23 AMI am microwaving a bowl of milk right now.
drs on June 22, 2009 8:29 AMThis even makes an appearance in the movie "21" doing one of the maths lectures, though it's refered to as "Variable Change" rather than the Monty Hall problem
Graeme Bradbury on June 22, 2009 8:32 AMThis problem nearly destroyed my relationship. Really. My fiance and I got into the biggest argument over this. I tried explaining the solution, my fiance called me stupid, and well, it erupted from there. I'm still a little angry about it quite frankly.
Lissy on June 22, 2009 8:33 AMAll I can imagine is the Benny Hill chase scenes between doors.
Ólafur Waage on June 22, 2009 8:35 AMJeff,
Have you ever said whether you got it right the first time? With such a big brain, I'd be surprised if you didn't ;)
I know I didn't. But by changing the story to 1,000,000 doors, where the contestant selects one door and then the host opens 999,998 other doors, leaving one un-opened, made it clear to me.
The psychological side of this question is far more fascinating than the question itself.
It's no wonder casinos are so profitable if (as someone said) 92% of the population get caught up on this type of question.
I've never played poker/blackjack etc for money. But it seems obvious that if you're ever going to be any good at it, you need a very clear understanding of exactly this type of unintuitive answer.
I would also suggest that many good players have an innate understanding of this, ie have never been taught.
AJ on June 22, 2009 8:38 AM@Simon: actually, it makes no difference whether Monty opens the door accidentally or not. The bottom line is you have a 1/3 chance of your initial choice having been correct. If an incorrect door then opens, there is a 2/3 chance that the OTHER door is correct, therefore you should still switch.
Gabriel Ross on June 22, 2009 8:39 AMI don't like the construction of the "Monty Fall" problem. What happens if the host slips and reveals the prize? Is it possible for the host to slip and re-open the contestant's door or only one of the non-selected doors? Without knowing if these probabilities are possible, I can't address it.
Monty Crawl, though, is neat.
keith on June 22, 2009 8:41 AMThe best way to explain it is actually change the problem slightly.
Say you have a million doors. Only 1 has the car behind it. the 999 999 others have goat.
So you pick a door.
Similarly, the host then opens all the other doors but one.
Do you switch?
Before the odds were 1 in a million to pick the car. But after the host opens the doors, you know that one of the doors has a goat, and the other is the car. In this variant, you know, that switching is better. Because you've changed the odds of getting the car from 1 in a million, to 1 in 2. Shrinking the problem you can always reason the same way, that switching is better, and so on down to the usual case.
The moment I was informed of the variant in this way, I beleived. :)
Robert B on June 22, 2009 8:44 AMWow, this is really non-intuitive but fun to think about. I thought it would make no difference to switch at first, but after reading the replies from Marilyn, it does make sense to switch.
Our minds truly suck at statistics and probabilities.
What also frightens me is that plenty of mathematicians were against her, they're supposed to understand this kind of thing.
Michel Billard on June 22, 2009 8:44 AM@Gabriel Ross Actually it makes all the difference in the world. Read the link that Jeff provided (the pdf link)
ChrisD on June 22, 2009 8:45 AMWait, I'll admit I don't understand, but after the first door is opened, she has a .5 probability of getting a car, substantially better than she had a second ago. Switching doors isn't going to change those odds one bit. What am I missing?
On a side note, and it's been decades since I saw the show, but I remember Monty pulling a $100 bill out of his pocket to offer the contestant a new choice altogether: Take the money and sit down, or proceed with the chance of getting a new car. Different decision, that.
Charles on June 22, 2009 8:48 AMRobert B: No, the odds are *always* better than 1 in 2 (and you don't need to use a million doors in an example to show that)
The important thing to realize is that the host always brings it down to a 2-door choice where one door has the prize. This is not a 1-in-2 choice.
If you initially picked the right door, switching will *lose* you the prize.
If you initially picked the wrong door, switching will *gain* you the prize.
So, the odds of winning are precisely 1 - (odds of you guessing from the original set of doors)
Gareth on June 22, 2009 8:51 AMI mean to say, the odds of winning if you switch doors
Gareth on June 22, 2009 8:52 AMMy problem is that "switching" means "taking the other one" and intuitively, it's simply turning a 1-in-3 chance into a 1-in-2 chance, so there's no reason why switching should make any difference at all.
I'm with Erdos on this one. I only believe it because the statistics say it's correct.
I still don't understand how it's not a 50/50 chance, no matter how many times people tell me the one door being wrong increases your knowledge about the validity of your initial choice (so it's a 33/33/33 choice and you drop one -- how does that not make it a 50/50 choice?).
Alan on June 22, 2009 8:55 AMA very simple way to explain...
Your first choice is usually wrong (66%) and thus 66% of the time the host is essentially showing you the correct door.
>it's a 33/33/33 choice and you drop one -- how does that not make it a 50/50 choice?
There was a 0.33 chance you picked the right door in the first place. Probabilities have to add up to 1, so there's a 0.66 chance that you win if you switch.
Anonymous on June 22, 2009 9:01 AMIt took me a long time to figure it out (after being told I was wrong the first time) but I finally decided this was a good way to think about it:
The key is that the host CAN NOT open the same door you chose. His or her hand is forced if you chose wrong.
2/3 of the time, your initial choice will be wrong, so 2/3 of the time the host's choice is forced.
In those cases, the host MUST open the other wrong door, leaving the third door as the right one. So, 2/3 of the time, the switch will be beneficial.
xebecs on June 22, 2009 9:01 AMIs there a subtle difference between the questions for A. The Unfinished Game (answer = 2/3) and B. Nebulous Neighbours (answer = 1/2)
A. "Let's say, hypothetically speaking, you met someone who told you they had two children, and one of them is a girl. What are the odds that person has a boy and a girl?"
B. "Your new neighbours have two children of unknown gender.
From older to younger, they are equally likely to be girl-girl, girl-boy, boy-girl, or boy-
boy. One day you catch a glimpse of a child through their window, and you see that
it is a girl. What is the probability that their other child is also a girl?"
http://www.probability.ca/jeff/writing/montyfall.pdf
Ian on June 22, 2009 9:05 AMHypothetical Situation:
The Monty Maul problem. There are 1 million doors. You pick one, and the shows host goes on a bloodrage fueled binge of insane violence, knocking open doors at random with no knowledge of which door has the car. He knocks open 999,998 doors, leaving your door and one unopened door. None of the opened doors contains the car.
Are your odds of winning if you switch still 50/50, as outlined by the linked Rosenthal paper? It seems counter-intuitive even for people who've wrapped their head around the original problem.
Anonymous on June 22, 2009 9:09 AMCome ON!
There are two doors closed. One contains a car.
The fact a third door is opened that contains a goat is irrelevant.
This is NOT about your odds at the beginning, when you had more doors (conditional probability). The question is posed RIGHT NOW, with two doors from which to choose. Asking you to switch doors is just posing the question in a different way. Which door?
At that moment, there is a 50/50 chance, a .5 probability. All events leading up to this moment are irrelevant to the odds that the car is behind ONE of TWO doors.
Charles on June 22, 2009 9:11 AMYou call it the "Monty Fall" problem.
ABC calls it "Deal or No Deal".
Windrider on June 22, 2009 9:14 AM@Ian - the subtle difference is that in "Nebulous Neighbours" one assumed that the child you observe is taken randomly from the two children. In "The unfinished game", the parent tells you "at least one of my children is a girl", and you can don't assume that that information is randomly sampled (e.g. if the distribution is BG or GB, you don't assume there's an equal chance the parent would have said "at least one of my children is a boy),
Or at least, that's my understanding.
aux on June 22, 2009 9:14 AM@Charles - I really hope you're trolling.
aux on June 22, 2009 9:15 AMOh, wow, I just failed hardcore. I put my e-mail address in the "website" line. Jeff, if you feel like going ahead and fixing that (I've got it linked correctly here), I'd be grateful. And if you don't, no big deal!
Windrider on June 22, 2009 9:15 AM@DavidW
Now flip ten million coins and randomly distribute them in sets of various sizes. Can you guarantee that all the sets of 2 results are evenly distributed among all possible combinations?
It's like if you were playing Blackjack. You know the possibility of getting every hand of 2 cards and then base your playing style off of that. But you are neglecting to take in account that cards already played affect the odds of you getting any particular 2 card hand.
Now, if we don't the ratio of girls to boys of non 2 child families, we are not equipped to make assumptions based on the ratio of 2 child families.
BA on June 22, 2009 9:16 AMWhat's wrong with goats? I'd take a goat. They make good pets.
Seriously, one of the problems people (like @mgb above) have with this is over-reliance on knowledge of the real Monty Hall's motivations on TV. It's unfortunate that the naming of this has contributed in part to the difficulty. If you ignore the preconception that comes with it and just look at the conditions as stated, it will help some of those people come closer to understanding. "It's better to switch than fight." (How's that for some old TV?)
Dennis on June 22, 2009 9:21 AMThis seems like it would be 1 in 3. Is this not correct?
Practicality on June 22, 2009 9:25 AMThe Monty Fall PDF has a "Nebulous Neighbors" example which appears to be saying that the answer to the boy-girl problem is actually 50% after all.
Discuss.
KJB on June 22, 2009 9:27 AM>it's a 33/33/33 choice and you drop one -- how does that not make it a 50/50 choice?
That's the mistake. You're not dropping one, you're getting both doors that you didn't pick. He's just opening one of them early. I didn't understand this until I programmed up a simulation for myself.
eshepherd on June 22, 2009 9:28 AMOne way I like to think about the Monty Hall problem is to take out the player's second choice. Since the problem's question is 'Is it better to always switch or always stick?' then what we need is the probability of winning when one always switches, and the probability of winning when one never switches.
Then there is only really one choice; what door to pick to begin with (a priori, of course, all have 1/3 chance of being the winning door). Clearly there are two outcomes from this choice; you pick the right door (probability 1/3) and that you pick the wrong door (probability 2.3).
If you picked the correct door to begin with and ALWAYS switch, you will ALWAYS lose, if you picked the wrong door and ALWAYS switch you will ALWAYS win.
If you picked the correct door to begin with and NEVER switch, you will NEVER lose, if you picked the wrong door and NEVER switch you will ALWAYS win.
So when never switching, p(win in 2nd round) = p(win in 1st round) = 1/3. And when always switching, p(win in 2nd round) = p(lose in 1st round) = 2/3. QED
Mark P on June 22, 2009 9:30 AMThis problem is neat. Yes you would want to switch. It's a little more strait forward than the previous question, which had some ambiguity depending upon the semantics.
Practicality on June 22, 2009 9:32 AMI fail further. DoND is on NBC, not ABC.
Monty Crawl is interesting. Even more interestingly, even though it seems like the door you choose at the start should affect your odds, it doesn't; I initially thought it did, until I realized it's like the door I chose vanished and Monty is crawling between only two doors, and it really doesn't matter which one is gone.
The neat part is that Monty Crawl, like the original Monty Hall problem, still gives you a 2 in 3 chance of winning. Even if Monty's door-opening algorithm is completely deterministic, it gives you no bonus information over opening a non-goat door. Your answer- "always switch"- doesn't even need to change either!
Let's say you have pity on Monty, and take door 3. It really doesn't matter for your odds. There are three possible universes for the problem, with equal probability:
1:3 - goat behind door 1 (losing) - universe 1
1:3 - goat behind door 2 (losing) - universe 2
1:3 - goat behind door 3 (winning) - universe 3
Any of these can happen with equal probability. So what does Monty do in each case?
universe 1- open door 2
universe 2- open door 1
universe 3- open door 1
Note that for universes 1 and 2, Monty has no choice; he'd go for the same doors even if he wasn't exhausted. Only Universe 3 changes Monty's behavior.
But you know more about Monty's behavior! You know he won't open door 2 in universe 3. So if he opens door 2, you're in universe 1, and you must change doors to hit a goat. Universe 1 happens 1/3 of the time, so 1/3 of the time, you win the car because Monty's behavior tells you 100% that the car is in door 1. Switch.
2/3 of the time, Monty will open door 1. Now you're in universe 2 or 3. If he chose door 2, you would definitely have switched; now, the only information he offers is that it's not behind door 1, because he essentially would have told you if it was. His answer, therefore, tells you about door 1 and provides no information as to whether the correct door is 2 or 3. Universes 2 and 3 are equally probable, and both have the same "symptom"; door 1 provides no evidence as to whether you should switch or not, as there's a 50% chance on either door. If you switch, you get a 50% chance; if you don't, you also get a 50% chance. "Always switch" still works, although it's not necessary if door 1 opens.
Interestingly, this version of the problem is more obviously a 2/3, because it's conceptually identical to getting two chances to choose a door. You make your first choice; then Monty tells you flat-out whether or not the car is behind the lowest-numbered unchosen door. If it is, you win. (odds 1/3.) If it isn't, you get a second pick from two doors- which gives you 1/2 odds, but it only happens 2/3 of the time, so this contributes 1/3 to your chance as well.
I'm not completely sure I'm right on this. I haven't read the paper for its answers yet.
Windrider on June 22, 2009 9:36 AMThis is by no means the same as the boy-girl or flip-a-coin choice. BTW, it obeys the stats laws all the way. It simply says that you are more likely to pick the wrong door to the odds of 2 out of 3 times. Hence if you assume you picked the wrong door and the host shows you the other wrong door then then switching should give you 2 to 1 odds of being right. Buyer beware. What all the mathematicians are trying to say is if you have a 'truly' random chance of winning that no matter how many times you repeat a result over and over again, next result is the same chance as the first try. So if you flip a coin ten times and get heads as in HHHHHHHHHH the chance of getting another head is still 50%. That is non-intuitive not this half-baked example. Two seconds of "real" thought solves the door issue. I personally forgive the PhD's as the contrived"ness" of the example was very poorly worded. Hence the confusion. For the record, if there is a million doors and you eliminate all but one and your door and there is only one winning door you would want to switch even more because there is only one in a million chance that the door you chose is the right door.
Jim on June 22, 2009 9:42 AMCase 1: 33%
Goat - you open this one
Goat - host will open this one
Car
Case 2: 33%
Goat - host will open this one
Goat - you open this one
Car
Case 3: 33%
Goat - 50% host opens this one
Goat - 50% host opens this one
Car - you open this one
In the first 2 cases (66%), you get the car if you switch. In the last case (33%) you get the car if you don't switch.
The host tells you something by his choice of which door to open.
Tim on June 22, 2009 9:44 AMOk, I see it like this. You pick a door at random, the host offers "Your door, or these other two doors?". Do you switch? According to the game rules, at least one of the two doors contains a goat: you don't have to be surprised by this.
Probabilities are tough. But then who seriously claims truth must be intuitive; does the sun actually rise?
Jim on June 22, 2009 9:44 AMI always found the proof of exhaustion really solidified it for me. The wikipedia article has the diagram proving that changing your solution wins 2/3 of the time, but it's trivial to do the same showing that not switching loses 2/3 of the time.
Steve-O on June 22, 2009 9:46 AMI find it funny in these cases that people think it's a choice to "believe" or not - as if this is something like believing in God or not. In one case, we have data, mathematical proof of the answer - how can you not believe this. It is not an issue of belief - it is an issue of whether you accept mathematics or not, and if you don't accept the math... there's a big problem. So what's next Jeff? The airplane on a treadmill? Lol :)
captcha: Mighty erect - WTF??!
Jasmine on June 22, 2009 9:46 AM@BA's comment to @DavidW
If you flip 10 million coins and *randomly* distribute them, you can saw with almost certainty the sets of two results are evenly distributed. And, beyond that, all the coins in sets of 1, 3, or more don't actually have any bearing on the sets of 2. In fact, all the other sets of two don't have a bearing on the single set you're looking at. It's an isolated case. Which is explicitly stated in the problem.
What you're neglecting to notice is that it is, essentially, the same as the Monty Hall problem. More specifically, it's the issue associated with switching. Girls represent the door you chose, and Boys represent door left by the Host. If you wanted your guess to be 'right' (that is, guess the gender, or win the car), you'd swap to the opposite gender (door) that you've chosen. Well, 67% of the time, anyway.
Birch on June 22, 2009 9:47 AM@Allen: "Just like a bunch of programmers to go back to basic counting and complicated simulations rather than use an existing, well tested algorithm."
No... because your the programmers here are arguing about how to apply your "well tested algorithm" (or else they don't understand it). In this case it is easier to just flip a coin or count. 60 seconds later you see the error of your ways. It is the people who want to try and prove this through mathematical means and refuse to just test out their own hypothesis that cause this to go on forever.
Create a hypothesis... THEN TEST IT! Don't sit here and tell us over and over again how something is supposed to work when you haven't even taken the time to make sure it works. ;)
Matt on June 22, 2009 9:50 AMon this matter i guess i can consider myself to be lucky
ARK on June 22, 2009 9:57 AMOkay, for people who are still having trouble grasping the concept of 'switching changes your probabilities', try looking at it this way (which came to me while writing a simulator for the Monty Hall problem):
Don't think like a contestant. Think like Monty.
Initially, there are two possibilities:
1. You chose the winning door.
2. You chose a losing door.
The sum of these probabilities of these two events is 100%. I think everybody can agree that the chance of #1 is 1/3, and the chance of #2 is 2/3.
Monty, then has to choose a door that has the following attributes:
A. The door is not the door you chose.
B. The door is not the door with the car.
Requirement B is what throws people off: they think that Monty is revealing a random door. The problem is -- 2/3 of the time, he's NOT.
In case #1, A and B are the same door, so Monty has two doors to choose from. But no matter which one he picks, if you switch, you are guaranteed to lose.
In case #2, however, you've cornered Monty. Requirements A and B each rule out one door. With only three doors, there's only ONE door left for him to show. You picked the first losing door, and he picked the second losing door. Therefore, in this case, you are guaranteed to win if you switch to the third door.
Therefore, there are exactly two possible ways to win:
1. Pick the winning door and then do not switch.
2. Pick a losing door and then switch.
Once again, the chance of picking the winning door is 1/3. This means that 1/3 of the time, switching will lose.
Meanwhile, the chance of picking the losing door is 2/3 -- so 2/3 of the time, switching will WIN.
Therefore, if you switch 100% of the time, you will win 2/3 of the time. If you never switch, you will win only 1/3 of the time.
Stephen Oberholtzer on June 22, 2009 9:58 AM@Jasmine:
There's a serious problem in American culture where "what feels right" is believed over mathematical proof or scientific evidence. See any number of debates, from vaccines causing autism to evolution vs. intelligent design.
In the face of all of the evidence, some people replying to this post still believe that the odds are 50/50. Unless they're trolling.
sadnessbowl on June 22, 2009 9:59 AM
@Tobermory:
"Monty Fall is the same as Monty Hall once the chance of accidentally revealing the car is gone."
"Intent" was bad choice of words on my part. Since Monty is not a random event generator, but has actual decision-making powers, his actions enhance instead of simply restrict the problem scope.
Lay out the possibilities end to end. It's not hard, there are only nine of them. Here, I'll start it for you:
1 0 0
0 1 0
0 0 1
That's three possibilities, where '1' is the door with the car, and the '0's are the doors with the goats. Assume that you always pick the first one.
That's three possibilities from your perspective. Now, cross-tab that with the three possibilities from Monty's accident perspective, and you have nine scenarios at the end. For the sake of discussion, daw this out as columns going across, where the first column is where Monty hits the first door, the second is where he hits the second door, and the third where he hits the third door. Because all three variables are independent, this is a valid and complete depiction of the problem space (with one of the three variables fixed; technically you could multiply the space by three, with identical setups where you chose the second door each time and then the third door each time but, again, being independent variables fixing one is legal).
100 -- 100 -- 100
010 -- 010 -- 010
001 -- 001 -- 001
Now, we know because the problem says it is so that the end state is such that Monty did not reveal your door nor the door with the car. That means that the entire first column gets eliminated from consideration, as well as the possibility at (2,2) and (3,3) (in both cases Monty would be revealing the car.
X00 -- 1-0 -- 10-
X10 -- 0X0 -- 01-
X01 -- 0-1 -- 00X
This leaves four outcomes:
1. (1,2) Monty reveals Door 2 and the car is behind door 1
2. (1,3) Monty reveals Door 3 and the car is behind door 1
3. (2,3) Monty reveals Door 3 and the car is behind door 2
4. (3,2) Monty reveals Door 2 and the car is behind door 3
50% of the time sticking your guns wins; 50% of the time switching wins. Thus, because the problem space has been reduced, we have a straightforward probabilities calculation.
Another way of thinking about this is this:
In the first starting condition, there's a 33% chance that Monty will mess up the whole scenario. In each of the other two starting conditions, there's a 66% chance that Monty will mess up the whole scenario (either by revealing the door you have already chosen or by revealing the car behind the other doors). This is the crux of it: since Monty has no guidance here, he is more likely to eliminate LOSING scenarios than winning scenarios.
Now, if Monty has INTENT, he is not just randomly reducing possibilities. He will always have two to choose from, and so what we need to look at is the pre-choice solution graph, not the post-choice one (because his choice is not an independent variable). Here, instead of a crosstab matrix, you have a tree.
The pre-choice graph looks, again, like:
100
010
001
The post-choice outcomes map from those starting points as:
100 -- 1-0 OR 10-
010 -- 01-
001 -- 0-1
In the first of the scenarios, sticking to your guns wins (no matter which Monty chooses to reveal). In two of the scenarios, switching to the other closed door wins.
Again, Monty isn't a random dummy here, and has exactly 0% chance of eliminating you in any scenario. Thus, the chance of your original choice selection being "right" remains at 33%, while the new information makes it twice as likely that the non-revealed other door is the right one.
Does that make more sense to you?
The fact that Monty can choose either of two outcomes in the first case does not make that case twice as likely to happen. Imagine giving Monty additional choices like opening the door with his left hand or right hand but only when you've picked the wrong door to start; these also would not make those possible outcomes any more likely.
Again, really: these problems are well-known and documented. If you think everyone has the Monty Hall or Monty Fall problems wrong, and you're not a professional statistician, it's like telling the world you know quantum mechanics better than Stephen Hawking. That's the realm of the crank.
Oh no! It's sadnessbowl! ;) At least this time we agree.
What's this about vaccines causing autism? I heard that it was watching television at a young age (with some research to back up the correlation, although it may not be causation).
Practicality on June 22, 2009 10:04 AMI read your post in my blog reader, and this description of the problem is _very_ misleading.
"""It appears to be a pretty silly question. Two doors are available -- open one and you win; open the other and you lose -- so it seems self-evident that whether you change your choice or not, your chances of winning are 50/50. What could be simpler? The thing is, Marilyn said in her column that it is better to switch."""
When I see the problem, it is the classical Monty Hall _three_ doors, and you do a switch. Your description makes it sound like you have two doors to choose from, you choose, and then without any additional information, you switch your choice.
Like I said, your quick description is IMHo a very misleading description of the scenario.
BTW, this has made it into popular culture, being used in the movie "21" as a class exercise.
dpc on June 22, 2009 10:05 AMSince my previous explanation was very similar to a previous one. Here's another attempt with the million door extreme example. Your first choice has a one in a million chance of being correct, so it is very more likely the winning/correct choice is not the room you picked. Now the host reveals all the incorrect choices until you have your original choice and the only remaining room that you didn't choose. If confronted with the these two rooms without the previous knowledge then you would have a 50/50 choice. Since you know your guess was "really" was a guess/"random" choice you now know the remaining room has the odds of being correct of 999999 times out of 1000000 tries, because the host told you what 999998 of the choices were wrong!
Jim on June 22, 2009 10:07 AMA widely read blogger has run out of useful and relevant material (a long time ago) but he must maintain some readership so that his ad revenues keep flowing. He looks into his bag of tricks to select topics that generate lots of traffic.
What is the probability that he will choose one of the following topics:
- NP complete
- Doors and goats
- Overclocking
- Developer workspaces
Whenever I am reminded of the Monty Hall dilemma I always wonder (and can never find out) if Monty and the producers of Let's Make A Deal were aware that they were giving the contestants a 2/3 chance to win the car. And if they were aware, who was the brain on that show who understood the counter-intuitive odds that stumps (apparently) 92% of the population. Is anyone aware of an interview with Monty where he is asked about the math puzzle named for him?
jmucchiello on June 22, 2009 10:13 AMPaul Erdos was brilliant, but even he realized his own limits when presented with the highly unintuitive Monty Hall problem. For his epitaph, he suggested, in his native Hungarian, "Végre nem butulok tovább". This translates into English as "I've finally stopped getting dumber."
If only the rest of us could be so lucky.
So you are suggesting we would be lucky to be dead?
There's another way to think of this problem that may make it easier to understand.
Imagine that there are 3 doors to pick from and you initially pick 1 of them like in the original problem.
But then BEFORE Monty Hall exposes which of the 2 doors you didn't pick has the goat, you get to decide whether to switch or not. You can have what's behind 2 of the doors or just the 1 you initially picked. (BTW, you don't have to take home any of the goats if you don't want to).
You don't have to be a math genius to know that your odds are better if you get to pick 2 doors as opposed to 1.
@Gregor Brandt.
So the punk really did feel lucky.
Practicality on June 22, 2009 10:17 AM"Or perhaps you're objecting to how unintuitive it is that the answer depends on what seem to be absolutely trivial pieces of information about how the information is obtained?"
Agreeing with Jon Skeet here. I think you are being a bit condescending to the smart people who simply disagree with you here. They do not find the math problem unintuitive but your wording made it unclear and ambiguous. I was surprised that you never made a correction/update to that post.
@Tim
Thanks for this explanation!
There are two DIFFERENT questions being argued.
1/ If you have a unbiased choice of two unopened doors, you have a 50% chance of winning the car. (The instinctive probability...)
BUT
2/ Monty WON'T open the door with the car! Therefore Monty is giving you better odds. Your odds are improved if you CHANGE your choice (as you demonstrate) to a 66% chance of winning.
(Still can't work out the baby thing though....)
Guy
Guy on June 22, 2009 10:21 AMProbability is much easier than all this. See The Daily Show's coverage of how most things are a 50/50 shot. (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=225921&title=large-hadron-collider)
GregB on June 22, 2009 10:24 AMMarilyn is wrong, and her logic is flawed.
Remember, Monty is ALWAYS going to choose a door with a goat! When Marilyn says that 2 out of three choices result in winning if you switch, she's assuming that one of the choices is the door that Monty opened...which is a goat.
In other words, you can't include the option where Monty opens door #2 and a car is there...because that can never happen! If you eliminate that option, the odds are 1:2...exactly what you would intuitively expect.
It's disturbing that eggheads at MIT wouldn't see the flaw in Marilyn's logic.
Troy Young on June 22, 2009 10:24 AMThis is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.
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