programming and human factors
by Jeff Atwood
The whole "everyone should learn programming" meme has gotten so out of control that the mayor of New York City actually vowed to learn to code in 2012.
A noble gesture to garner the NYC tech community vote, for sure, but if the mayor of New York City actually needs to sling JavaScript code to do his job, something is deeply, horribly, terribly wrong with politics in the state of New York. Even if Mr. Bloomberg did "learn to code", with apologies to Adam Vandenberg, I expect we'd end up with this:
10 PRINT "I AM MAYOR" 20 GOTO 10
Fortunately, the odds of this technological flight of fancy happening – even in jest – are zero, and for good reason: the mayor of New York City will hopefully spend his time doing the job taxpayers paid him to do instead. According to the Office of the Mayor home page, that means working on absenteeism programs for schools, public transit improvements, the 2013 city budget, and … do I really need to go on?
To those who argue programming is an essential skill we should be teaching our children, right up there with reading, writing, and arithmetic: can you explain to me how Michael Bloomberg would be better at his day to day job of leading the largest city in the USA if he woke up one morning as a crack Java coder? It is obvious to me how being a skilled reader, a skilled writer, and at least high school level math are fundamental to performing the job of a politician. Or at any job, for that matter. But understanding variables and functions, pointers and recursion? I can't see it.
Look, I love programming. I also believe programming is important … in the right context, for some people. But so are a lot of skills. I would no more urge everyone to learn programming than I would urge everyone to learn plumbing. That'd be ridiculous, right?
The "everyone should learn to code" movement isn't just wrong because it falsely equates coding with essential life skills like reading, writing, and math. I wish. It is wrong in so many other ways.
I suppose I can support learning a tiny bit about programming just so you can recognize what code is, and when code might be an appropriate way to approach a problem you have. But I can also recognize plumbing problems when I see them without any particular training in the area. The general populace (and its political leadership) could probably benefit most of all from a basic understanding of how computers, and the Internet, work. Being able to get around on the Internet is becoming a basic life skill, and we should be worried about fixing that first and most of all, before we start jumping all the way into code.
Please don't advocate learning to code just for the sake of learning how to code. Or worse, because of the fat paychecks. Instead, I humbly suggest that we spend our time learning how to …
These are skills that extend far beyond mere coding and will help you in every aspect of your life.
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Can you please watch Teaching kids real math with computers and go through your arguments against learning programming again? Are the arguments still valid or does Conrad Wolfram have a point? If programming can make math more relevant and at the same time make every child in the world able to make the most out of their (increasingly) digital environments, isn't that something we should try to achieve? Doesn't the mere idea make you ecstatic (like me)?
asbjornu on May 22, 2012 8:26 AMCan you clarify what you meant by "learn to code"? It seems that everyone's talking about different things when they say that
Account Deleted on May 22, 2012 5:23 PMIf you get a bunch of non-programmers to go through some basic courses on programming through something like codecademy they'll appreciate what goes into it.
Too often these days people expect great software (and apps) for free. Once you begin to write your own code I think you're more likely to donate to those who produce great applications and dish them out for free.
Roy Huyett on May 22, 2012 6:24 PMI agree 100%.
I saw so many comments where people said "but coding teaches you all these other skills..." and that's true, but there's lots of ways to learn those skills that are more useful.
One crucial life skill is just being familiar with technology and not afraid of it. If the "programming" that everyone should learn is akin to "programming a VCR" then I'd agree with the meme. But I think it means coding, and that's silly.
A variety of life skills is an important thing. I am really good with computers, but I don't have any sort of foundation of skills for something like home ownership. I have to admit, I'm probably one of those guys that sometimes needs help lighting a pilot light on my furnace. Perhaps I could build a robot and code it to light it for me, but I still wouldn't know the solution so coding wouldn't help (I've since learned my furnace doesn't have a pilot light.)
I look at my grandpa and he knows how to do a bit of everything. He can fix my hot water heater, build me a shed from 2x4's and plywood, get my lawn mower going, sort out electrical problems in my home, dispense advice on living a happy life, and many more things. In return, I help him with setting up contacts on his cell phone and fix the aspect ratio on his TV. Now let me ask you, which of the two of us would you rather have in your life?
Bottom line: learning coding is good, but if you don't need to code, there are far better things you could learn that would improve your life in a vastly superior way.
Troy Head on May 24, 2012 12:17 PMJeff,
Great article!
In my experience, with about thirty years behind the keyboard, programming is a talent. It requires both the ability to think logically and the ability to think systemically. There's perhaps five percent of the population that are naturally wired that way, and perhaps another 15-20 percent that can learn enough patterns to to fake it. The good ones also tend to be autodydactic. You can tell the naturals even in grade school - they're the ones who've figured out all the cheats to their favorite games and use those cheats to manipulate the games never intended by the games' creators (I have one daughter like this, the other should never be allowed near a command line). The naturals gravitate to programming because it's what they do - the remainder are in it because of the salaries and other perks that come with it, and most of those eventually end up in technical management.
What this means is that programming professions generally follows the trade/mentorship route (there's actually a lot more similarity between being a plumber and being a programmer than most programmers are comfortable with). You can learn "how to program" in school, but most of the good programmers I've worked with over the years tended to have one or more mentors at some point in their career that steered them in certain directions, that helped them smooth their rough edges and that ushered them into a particular programming "school" or community. Apprentice, journeyman, master. Those mentors also periodically put challenges in the way of their apprentices, because programming is, at its core, the application of "magic" in order to solve problems, and if a person cannot work their way through a relatively benign problem, what's going to happen when they reach a real world one that is far from benign.
Most politicians are not inherently logical problem solvers - they're salesmen. They attempt to get their agendas passed by selling the idea, by making deals, by trading, none of which can be readily quantified programmatically. They see IT jobs as "green jobs" - low environmental impact, high salary, and in theory trainable (those holds true for most STEM jobs for that matter).
In practice, both the intrinsic aptitude requirement and the 10K hour rule still apply, and as you point out, there are a lot of half-assed "programmers" out there who will be able to solve problems through the application of automated problem solvers but who have only a marginally understanding of the fundamentals of computing.
Kurt Cagle on May 25, 2012 10:08 AMa freak throw a stone to the pit
and 40 smart guy get back the stone from the pit....
what a joke
but I like that tweet
10 I am mayor
20 Go to 10
Lovely mayor expect the next incarnation :)
I don't expect that everybody who learns to code will work with this.
For example, I like to study astronomy but I don't have plans to work with this. Astronomy is a hobby for me, why coding couldn't be a hobby for the others?
I agree with you that people should focus on problem solving, and there is a lot of problems in the world that are not solved by software. But I think you are taking this meme too serious.
People are free to choose what to learn, and this is beautifull!
Nícolas Iensen on May 29, 2012 6:54 AMI know just enough BASIC to write the occasional brute force program to solve an otherwise long and tedious series of math problems. I once thought I could learn more, but found out it's a lot more trouble than it could ever be worth.
Marc Pavone on May 29, 2012 8:42 PMIf the mayor of New York wants to learn to code in his off duty time then let him.
Mistermcintosh on May 31, 2012 9:15 AMI agree and disagree with you Jeff
I believe that programming is creating solutions, you said that dont love code but love creating solutions, programming teaches how to face porblems that occur while you try to solve the problem, but programming is not the only way to do that.
Pahnin on June 2, 2012 5:12 AMBloomberg trying to learn code? I think your facts are a little jumbled, but you made some funny points. Lighten up guys, I don't think anyone should get worked up about Bloomberg of all people! lol
Web Design on June 3, 2012 1:49 PMJeff, just wanted to let you know that your article touched off a lively discussion in NY Tech Women group on linkedin.
If you are curious take a look.
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Have-you-seen-this-blog-4280894.S.120848624?qid=687e07ed-81c1-4635-9138-19a53b7d3fd0&trk=group_most_popular-0-b-ttl&goback=.gde_4280894_member_120848624.gmp_4280894
That's quite a poorly written post, Jeff. On the one hand you seem to be equating "coding" with simply bashing out random letters on a keyboard and on the other you're saying that "most people who consider themselves programmers can't even code". It seems to me that in an effort to justify your rather reactionary response, you've written a whole article that for the most part doesn't support the headline.
Given the tone of your post, why shouldn't any professional journalist turn around to you now and say, "Please don't learn how to write in public"? Indeed, why should anyone learn any skills at all that aren't directly related to the job they're destined to do?
Why bother to try anything new at all for fear that the elite will tell you, "You won't be able to do it properly" and then, "it's not really that useful anyway"?
Kevin Phair on June 7, 2012 3:31 AM"Please don't learn to cook"
-A Chef
"Please don't learn to fix old cars"
-A Mechanic
"Please don't learn to drive"
-A Cab Driver
"Please don't ever have hobbies that don't relate to your day job or profession, but happen to interest you."
-No reasonable person ever
I would agree with the arching sentiment provided in the comments. Coding is like mathematics, it forces the brain to think in if/then statements and to solve problems; to research and persevere and find a solution that works. Most people aren't going to grow up to be mathematicians (or anything close), yet the coursework still teaches students to think logically and solve problems. As such, it is fundamental curriculum. Coding is the modern equivalent.
My bias: I started coding at nine years old. Even though I decided to turn it into a profession, it has taught me so many universal skills applicable to all industries. And, in my opinion, was the most valuable component to my education outside of English and History and Math.
Cheers!
BpmExchange on June 13, 2012 6:07 PMI think the "everyone needs to learn to code" thing is a misplacement of a totally legit sentiment, that everyone needs to understand logic-based algorithms. This isn't just useful in tech, this is useful in all life decisions. We all know people who can't manage basic calculations like, "*If* I punch this guy, *then* he will punch me, *or else* he will call the cops on me." or "*If* I eat my roommate's food AND I don't replace it, OR if I leave wet towels on the floor, *then* my roommate will be pissed."
A basic understanding of algorithmic thinking and boolean logic is essential to successful life planning.
Bbinkovitz on June 14, 2012 2:48 PMThe learn to code movement was born out of the economic downturn, not learning how to solve problems and think critically. Coding is a gateway for that, but there are other fields(like plumbing). We are now solidly in the information age and people that have relied on manual labor or other easily 'replaceable skills' can no longer find work. Many places require experience and/or education and these people are out of luck. Coding seemed like an answer because you can make 'tons' of money, you don't have to go to school for it, you can learn it for free at home and the 'experience' question can be solved by working on online projects you can point to in a portfolio. I definitely wouldn't turn anyone away from learning code or otherwise, but some of these programs are set to run in places where the students might not have access to the internet and/or computers. I don't know about you, but sometimes you need to spend quality time debugging and the 30-minute time-limit at the library computer isn't going to cut it. Not to mention the things you usually have to install to get going with some languages.
We need to spend efforts on affordable computers and broadband. Making broadband more accessible. (I understand groups are working on this). We don't need more coders. We need to really deal with what caused this downturn.
Gammafied on June 19, 2012 4:17 PMYeah, you should all stick to your ignorance, don't learn stuff, don't force yourself to become smarter, don't try to think by yourself, don't develop any kind of personal thought, taste or even wish : be one of the sheep !!
If you were born stupid and poor, it's because god decided it and it's your fault (i know it doesn't make sense but then it's like the 3 "holy" books).
Let me organise your life for you but pay me for it ! and a lot as you don't know how to do it !!
=> Dear writer, i won't push any futher the caricature of your wish to see the rest of the humanity lower and lower their intelectual ambition. However i will add that when you say : "something is deeply, horribly, terribly wrong with politics in the state of New York" you are mistaking. If a mayor as to learn the code, it's because the guys who are meant to know how to code, create codes that are at best hidden (which is already a freaking shame) at worst just full of security hole when it's not a sell-by date so they can sell more of their crap 2 years later !!
You should get out of your office and have a walk in the street, because then you would see how many people could actually use the job !!
Rom Babey on June 29, 2012 5:57 AM"Everyone should learn to code" isn't about getting thousands of new developers to write dodgy programs or enter the field of professional programming. It's about LITERACY. I'd rather have a somewhat educated user than a blind consumer any day of the week. A good parallel to this might be the way we teach middle schoolers about the advertising industry. There's plenty of instruction in schools as to how ads are constructed, how audiences are being marketed to, what techniques are being used, and so on. The aim of these programs isn't to launch a thousand slimy careers on Madison Avenue, it's to get people to critically engage with the culture.
Account Deleted on June 29, 2012 1:14 PM@_Nevermind You're confusing intelligence with knowledge. Learning math or coding doesn't make you smarter– only more knowledgeable of the subject. What you do with the underlying principles and what parallels you draw from them to enable a different understanding of the world is another matter. They are mutually exclusive.
David Metcalfe on July 1, 2012 8:49 AMThis is a straw man argument. Of course coding isn't the kind of skill 'everybody' should learn and of course it isn't 'useless', but those kind of extremes are seldom sensible in an argument. I would say that 'algorithmic thinking is a very useful skill that more people, even outside the tech world, should learn'. (But that isn't so catchy is it?) So Jeff, would you, with your "thirty years" and "ten thousand hours" agree to that, at least?
I teach psychologists how to program. I fully agree that for some that will turn out to be useless, no doubt. But, as an example, algorithmic thinking is very helpful in understanding modern cognitive psychology and recent cognitive neuroscience methods. It is a very helpful tool in (Msc) research with stimulus presentation and data analysis. All in all I would say that for these 'non-techies' it can be quite useful. Would you disagree? (And after a month of learning they can produce pretty neat creative little things: http://www.delphimasters.nl/)
Michael Capalbo on July 3, 2012 1:32 AMI personally do not think everyone should be a plumber or a programmer.
I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD BE A LION TAMER: here is the future in my opinion.
Alessandro O on July 9, 2012 2:21 AMDeny the ability of people to self is unfair and harsh. Not a lot of learning and drudgery of the world aware of the loop is not that easy to stop yavudarindalu solved. http://eblogz.net With the increasing popularity of user-programmable tools and applications, as well as the article seems to be ignored.
Rina Webb on July 16, 2012 11:38 PMIt seems that Jeff (and most of those who agree with him) argue against letting "mere mortals" learn to code because they're afraid of losing their job security, and frankly that's pathetic.
If you're worried your employer is going to outsource your job to the Mayor of New York, please get a job in the service industry, because frankly, I'd rather have to maintain and debug his code than yours. And yes, I'd like fries with that.
Those who argue against learning to code as a meaningful exercise in expanding ones mental faculties, or as a way to better understand what code does to avoid being duped need only look at how easily politicians swindle the ignorant masses who can't read or add.
@Konrad was a particularly elucidating example of that mentality. By all means eliminate math and reading as well as keeping coding from the core curriculum if you want ignorant slaves. But don't complain when your chamber pot smells because the surly churls haven't got around to changing it yet.
Fijiaaron on August 7, 2012 2:38 PMAlthough this is an entertaining and interesting post, I've been wanting to learn how to code for years. I'm a huge nerd and always have been since I was a kid. I'm just not very good with reading books of text. I'm more of a hands on learner. I'm a machinist by trade and have had to learn how to program a CNC lathe to do my job. I love how things work and feel that to learn the basics of how computers and programs work, you should learn how code works to know these things. I'm hoping to find someone who can kind of help me learn coding. Codeacademy didn't help much because it didn't explain a lot of things for beginners like me. Like where to put the { } symbols. I read a really awesome tutorial earlier about Java that explained variables, control structure, data structure, and syntax very well and feel I've learned a little about coding. Hopefully I can learn more soon.
Galaxy80 on August 9, 2012 10:25 PMAt the very least you should teach kids about binary. Just the knowledge of the fact that pretty much your whole entire world can be encoded into 1s and 0s is amazing. Learning to program also helps you understand and appreciate the tech world around you. Also it helps you to look at the world in terms of logic, it helps to understand true and false things, and that knowledge could help you think things through more clearly. Lastly it also gives you a lot of experience in analysis and failure. P.S. Even though it would be good to teach kids the underlying basics of programming. I am glad that schools do not teach it because of the fact that they do not teach hardly anything well especially in America.
Shayperkin on August 17, 2012 9:52 PMIts really a wonderful article...Very nice...
http://kurt-penberg.weebly.com/
Lots of good points, in particular too many people try to create solutions for problems that don't exist. One point though is -
There are different types of programming
If everyone knew the basics of using excel forumlae, they would find doing their accounting easier
If everyone knew the basics of shell scripts, they would find managing their media archives
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Watch2x on September 12, 2012 5:44 PMI think you should stop telling everyone what do to!
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jcbphlip on September 20, 2012 9:43 AMBefore learning code, shouldn't people learn programming ?
Hello,
for normal people IT is good to know how to program on
the highest level possible. for remembering the mapping of a key
to a function you use. functional gesture;
__copycat__ = command+c
__zO_Om__ = control + touchpad(range(100.,0.,001))
__LMB__ = select
or is it programming self?
gruss aus germany ;)
Felix Buetzow on October 6, 2012 12:46 PM the right context, for some people. But so are a lot of skills. I would no more urge everyone to learn programming than I would urge everyone to learn plumbing. london apartments for rent
This guy is right, if we all knew how to code, none of us programmers would recive our megar payment for who we are. Like for instance, just because you know how to read, doesnt mean somebody will pick you out of the employment line and pay you 100,000 dollars monthy because you can read, anyone can do it. So if anyone can program, nobody would have a job for programming. Because its just as important as reading, anyone can program, but if everyone programmed as good as notch, where would windows or Apple be? Like if anyone can juggle, than juggling would not get you the fame you deserve, or the money you make. Not everyone should program, or programming would be worthless. But if NOBODY programmed, then we would all be computer idiots, and thats where we are. To code can be a small hobby just to create small applications for friends, but if you wanna take it professinal, thats where you learn. Theres more to reading, you just know the basics. Same with programming. Theres more to it, but its good if you get the basics.
Mohammmad on November 14, 2012 5:34 PMSaying "Don't learn to code" is like saying "Don't learn to read or write" or "Don't get a job". Now I totally see where you are going with this no doubt, by seeing how coding is something for you to discover, not have shoved down your throat. But not learning how to code at all is giving up a education all-together.Yes, its true, coding SHOULDN'T be one of the main subjects, but at least for bill gates sake put it up as an opportunity. To code or not should be up to you, as coding is only fun if you think it is. But having it shoved down your throat makes it boring and dumb, and that's the exact opposite of what coding is. You should not take coding because everyone else is. Coding only makes you happy if you truly give into it. I hope that explains the thoughts put into this, along with ones of my own. Spoken from the words of a happy ruby programmer who thought if he never learned to code at all, he would have nothing to do with his life.
Mohammmad on November 16, 2012 7:19 PMI learned 5 scripting languages in less than 8 weeks, and I am the happiest man alive. The more you know, the more satisfied you are. The more ignorant you are, the more dumb you look. You can only learn if you want to, and not learning gets you now where.
Mohammmad on November 16, 2012 7:23 PMYes, people code professionally who shouldn't. But problem solving is also something people do for fun. Problem solving games should be designed that encourage learning such things as design patterns and should present tools that correspond with an API. These puzzles can be made fun enough that children will want to play with them.
There is an intrinsic value to programming, like writing a poem, or folding origami.
This intrinsic value is a higher quality motivator than the utilitarian one (of which the "boot camp" victims seem the ultimate representation).
It is definitely something that should be made accessible to younger children. We need more code mozarts. It will be a Mozart that designs the first recursively self-improved AI system.
David Morgan on December 28, 2012 2:55 PMIn regards to portability the Zenbook is awesome. Just like the Macbook Air, it is easy to carry with you on air planes. Brought mine to China a few months back, I felt sorry for the guys lugging around old style Macbook Pros and PC Notebooks. Looks like they came straight out of the 90ies china manufacturing
"It puts the method before the problem. Before you go rushing out to learn to code, figure out what your problem actually is. Do you even have a problem? Can you explain it to others in a way they can understand? Have you researched the problem, and its possible solutions, deeply? Does coding solve that problem? Are you sure?"
I don't know about you, but I doubt anything as abstract as a "problem solving" course would have stuck with me without a concrete application to learn it alongside or by-way-of, and the abstract nature of programming makes it the ideal application.
As with Math, I don't think it's a matter of learning the application before the theory or the theory before the application, but learning them both in parallel produces the best results, at least for many of us.
Furthermore, the problem modeling/solving and critical thinking skills learned through programming have important applications in most (if not all) professions and in many areas of personal life (due to surplus of problems and shortage of critical thought ;) ).
I can't think of an application that lends itself to a broader range of applications while being concrete enough to facilitate an understanding of the subject.
Craig Weber on January 3, 2013 9:06 AMIn general, you failed to address the value of transferable skills. Shame on you. :p
Craig Weber on January 3, 2013 9:15 AMI now own an iPhone 5, several retina iPads, and a Nexus 7. I'm sure there are many more of these devices on the way. In the calculus of deciding what kind of computing device I want with me, even the most awesome ultraportable laptop I can find is no longer enough. unlock iPhone 4
I hope one day one of your kids gets told that they shouldn't do something, because they'll probably suck at it. Then you'll get an idea how hard it can be to pull someone out of that hole. Tax Preparation NJ
Isn't knowing how to change a tire, and when to take your car in for an oil change, sufficient? If your toilet is clogged, you shouldn't need to take a two week in depth plumbing course on toiletcademy.com to understand how to fix that. Reading a single web page, just in time, should be more than adequate. diamond bar plumbing
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30 year career in programming eh?
Maybe you should retire...
Duncan MacDonald on February 13, 2013 2:54 AMThe fundamental problem with all of this is, programming does not teach you anything about how computers *work*, even at the assembly language level. Don't believe me? Go spend six months learning VHDL or Verilog and make a CPU core with an FPGA, then you will have some idea about how computers work. Until then, learning to code is just an exercise in understanding the tools people use to solve problems *with* computers.
Learning to code in order to learn about computers or the Internet is the wrong approach. Knowing how to code does not magically give you insight into how problems have been solved with programs and computers, any more than knowing advanced math gives you insight into how NASA put a man on the moon. It might give you more of an appreciation into the scale of the problem solved, but that's about it.
Back in the 80's when home computers were getting popular, the only people who owned them were geeks, and most systems came with BASIC in ROM. You could play crappy games or code. Now that computers are a commodity, it does not mean the number of geeks has increased, but easy access to getting started with programming is orders of magnitude larger.
Seems analogies are popular here, so I'll use one for the sake of making my post larger. Cars are a commodity and everyone has one (and no, learning to drive is not analogous to learning to code). Of the people who can operated a car, only a few can fix a car (auto mechanics). And of those who can fix a car, even fewer can engineer and build a car.
Just because there are billions of cars and drivers in the world, being a mechanic or engineer does not make you a better driver, it does not stop accidents, it does not stop drunk driving, etc. Having a world full of educated drivers who can change a flat tire does not make cars or roads any better or safer.
Programming is like a puzzle. It is problem solving with a specific tool, and it can be fun - sometimes. Do it because you enjoy it.
Matthew Hagerty on February 26, 2013 2:18 PMErr.. this post felt like a 1-minute soapbox rant. I can't see what's wrong with everyone learning to c0d3...
James on March 26, 2013 11:16 AMI'm glad I'm not the only one to vomit whenever I read these things. I keep seeing ads for Treehouse programming school and it disgusts me. We already have too many incompetent "coder" writing broken, untested, unmaintainable, inefficient code. Seriously, the world is flooded in this disgusting plague of crap code.
If you aren't a professional and you don't have a proper education, especially in things like algorithms, then for the love of god, leave the real programming work for other people. Feel free to write as much toy code and personal hobby projects as you like, but don't think, even for a second, that anybody needs you to write code. We need the opposite.
Put the keyboard down!
Andrew Cole on April 2, 2013 7:39 AMThis is great Jeff. Can we also throw our hat in as a better way to learn? I'd like to think that we are creating solutions providers out of people who need to be developers at www.codercamps.com.
CoderCamps on May 8, 2013 4:36 PMSo jeff tells not to learn to code. I wonder if he's going to tell his kids same thing if they want to become just like Daddy? He will run over and show them how to code and it's the best thing ever! But, of course, your kids shouldn't learn to code, and you shouldn't, and your friends shouldn't, just jeff AND HIS KIDS should.
Now imagine if Jeff's son was in school and a teacher told his son something like this: "Ok, just stop. You shouldn't learn to code even if you want to. No, I don't care if your Dad does it, you suck at it and the world does not need more bad code. Go finger paint or something."
Jeff would be absolutely livid. He would probably try to have that teacher fired. Well actually Jeff might be a nice guy and would politely ask the teacher to maybe not say such mean things. But the point is, I know Jeff would be angry if a teacher told his son he couldn't do something.
Yet, here's Jeff, happily doling out advice telling everyone this very same thing. He's telling other people's kids to not learn to code. He's telling adults who want to improve their lives, or just learn something new. He's telling people from other professions that no, programming won't help them.
Why? Why would Jeff tell people to quit and just let the professionals do this? Because of resentment.
Erjan Kenjegalee on May 13, 2013 9:48 AMThe comments to this entry are closed.
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