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Coding Horror
programming and human factors
by Jeff Atwood

May 18, 2005

A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy

Dare Obasanjo recently wrote about the failure of Kuro5hin, which was originally designed to address perceived problems with the slashdot model:

[Kuro5hin allowed] all users to create stories, vote on the stories and to rate comments. There were a couple of other features that distinguished the K5 community such as diaries but the democratic aspect around choosing what was valuable content was key. K5 was a grand experiment to see if one could build a better Slashdot and for a while it worked, although the cracks had already begun to show within the first year.

Five years later, I still read Slashdot every day but only check K5 out every couple of months out of morbid curiosity. The democracy of K5 caused two things to happen that tended to drive away the original audience. The first was that the focus of the site ended up not being about technology mainly because it is harder for people to write technology articles than write about everyday topics that are nearer and dearer to their hearts. Another was that there was a steady influx of malicious users who eventually drove away a significant proportion of K5's original community.

Besides the malicious users one of the other interesting problems we had on K5 was that the number of people who actually did things like rate comments was very small relative to the number of users on the site. Anytime proposals came up for ways to fix these issues, there would often be someone who disregarded the idea by stating that we were "seeking a technical solution to a social problem". This interaction between technology and social behavior was the first time I really thought about social software.

This is, unfortunately, a pattern I've also observed in the various online communities I've participated in. And it's a very old pattern indeed. Clay Shirky's essential A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy dates this phenomenon all the way back to 1978:

In the Seventies, a BBS called Communitree launched, one of the very early dial-up BBSes. This was launched when people didn't own computers, institutions owned computers. Communitree was founded on the principles of open access and free dialogue. "Communitree" -- the name just says "California in the Seventies." And the notion was, effectively, throw off structure and new and beautiful patterns will arise.

And, indeed, as anyone who has put discussion software into groups that were previously disconnected has seen, that does happen. Incredible things happen. The early days of Echo, the early days of usenet, the early days of Lucasfilms Habitat, over and over again, you see all this incredible upwelling of people who suddenly are connected in ways they weren't before.

And then, as time sets in, difficulties emerge. In this case, one of the difficulties was occasioned by the fact that one of the institutions that got hold of some modems was a high school. And who, in 1978, was hanging out in the room with the computer and the modems in it, but the boys of that high school. And the boys weren't terribly interested in sophisticated adult conversation. They were interested in fart jokes. They were interested in salacious talk. They were interested in running amok and posting four-letter words and nyah-nyah-nyah, all over the bulletin board.

And the adults who had set up Communitree were horrified, and overrun by these students. The place that was founded on open access had too much open access, too much openness. They couldn't defend themselves against their own users. The place that was founded on free speech had too much freedom. They had no way of saying "No, that's not the kind of free speech we meant." But that was a requirement. In order to defend themselves against being overrun, that was something that they needed to have that they didn't have, and as a result, they simply shut the site down.

Now you could ask whether or not the founders' inability to defend themselves from this onslaught, from being overrun, was a technical or a social problem. Did the software not allow the problem to be solved? Or was it the social configuration of the group that founded it, where they simply couldn't stomach the idea of adding censorship to protect their system? In a way, it doesn't matter, because technical and social issues are deeply intertwined. There's no way to completely separate them.

As a community grows, these types of rules-- neither social nor technical, but a hybrid of both-- become critical to the survival of the community. If moderators fail to step in, the damage can be fatal:

Geoff Cohen has a great observation about this. He said "The likelihood that any unmoderated group will eventually get into a flame-war about whether or not to have a moderator approaches one as time increases."* As a group commits to its existence as a group, and begins to think that the group is good or important, the chance that they will begin to call for additional structure, in order to defend themselves from themselves, gets very, very high.

I've seen it play out exactly like this, with reluctant moderators whose hands are forced due to outcry from the users. All of Clay's articles are worth reading; I'd follow up with Communities, Audiences, and Scale which is particularly relevant to blogs and other community driven websites-- it proposes that social software, as we typically think of it, may not scale after all.

Which reminds me of a quote from Scrubs:

Cox: Thanks to your little gesture, she (Dr. Clock) actually believes that the Earth is full of people who are deep down filled with kindness and caring!

Kelso: Well that's absurd. People are bastard coated bastards with bastard filling.

Cox: Exactly!

If you're building software with social components, plan for the worst kinds of behavior from your users from the start. At least lay the groundwork for technological and social controls to handle those inevitable issues, or you'll eventually regret it.

* Not related to Godwin's law.

Posted by Jeff Atwood    View blog reactions
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Comments

>software with social components

Like a blog? :-) Was there a specific incident or site that inspired your thoughts on this?

mike on May 19, 2005 10:59 AM

No one particular incident inspired that post, other than noting that Dare's problems with Kuro5hin were really the same problems Communitree had in 1978. Computers may change, but people don't.

I guess the problems with comment spam are probably the closest analog for blogs. You have to wonder why Movable Type (for example) didn't ship out of the box with some fairly comprehensive comment abuse protection-- identity, throttling, keyword blocking, etcetera. All added much later after the fact, and that was clearly an oversight for a company building social software.

Blogs with comments off definitely aren't social software, though. Not even really a blog at that point, IMO.

Jeff Atwood on May 19, 2005 11:58 AM

>People are bastard coated bastards with bastard
>filling.

And extra bastard sprinkles.

i *do* like that quote.

lb on November 28, 2006 8:00 PM

Maybe when a site gets too restrictive, or cumbersome, or too full of whatever, it's time to move to a new site. Of course you lose your "community".

Kind of like changing email programs, or computers, or offices. If it is really important, you will take the trouble to carry it to the new one.

Kind of like digital archives. Eventually whatever media you used becomes obsolete, so you move to new media. The bad thing is if you do not transfer all your archives from the old media to the new, you lose it. The good thing is if you do not transfer your old data, it goes away, and you do not have to worry about it anymore.

Charles Pergiel on November 30, 2006 10:50 AM

So I entered a comment, and where it asks for a URL, I put in the address of my (brand new) blog. And my comment was rejected due to "questionable content". What gives?

Blog address:
http-colon-slash-slash-pergelator-blog-spot-com

Charles Pergiel on November 30, 2006 10:54 AM

LOL at Bastard quote !

Dean on December 12, 2006 4:35 AM

Reminds me of how myspace is now a giant advertising tool. Which, hey, I'm guilty of using.

Dilpil on March 1, 2007 7:24 AM

have you considered race-specific behavior in such situations?

I believe you'd have to account for a LOT of things when your app reach a global audience and not just people in your country.

chakrit on May 28, 2008 10:10 AM

re. "race-specific behavior"

oh dear Chakrit, I think you might mean social-group-specific behaviour, as it is how people act based on the rule structure they live by / react to, not their racial background, that is the determining factor here.

Ideally moderators should come from all the social and cultural groups that members do.

Michal

michal on July 22, 2009 11:55 AM
Content (c) 2009 Jeff Atwood. Logo image used with permission of the author. (c) 1993 Steven C. McConnell. All Rights Reserved.